Brand Build Testing

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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:51 pm

Yep, as soon as I read it I forehead-slapped. :P I assumed all passives have flags, but I forgot the Miens do not, so checking for passive flags doesn't work as a check for passives. :P Added to the bug list, and thanks. :D
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:05 pm

Spiny veil also doesn't count as a passive for brand conditions. Auto exploration sometimes goes to the same brand a couple of times if you don't pick it up. When you come back from a branch, auto explore prioritizes abandoned brands first, and only then goes to a portal. Brand combination "No SP costs above 0, Last used: Slash, Magic +60" is possible to make work, but come on, doubt it will be worth it. 0 SP costs and last used shouldn't spawn together perhaps. Or maybe we should be able to change the type of summoner's basic attack.
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:34 pm

Spiny Veil is a Reaction, so it is correct that it doesn't count as a passive. Re-cycling to the same Brand multiple times is incorrect behavior and I'll look into it. :D (note: If this one happens again, a save file will help, I didn't see this when I was originally testing Brands.) ...but going to abandoned brands on a re-visit to a level is, for the moment at least, expected behavior (auto-explore data isn't saved between levels or sessions, so there's no way to avoid that at the moment.)

That Brand would be great on a Veil tank demon with a Slash auto attack, though I admit the usual is for the summoner themselves to be the Veil tank. :D Changing the summoner's basic attack type is something I could look into... but it doesn't have a lot of other applications besides very obscure Brand rolls. Could make it a side-effect of Soul Armor, perhaps... I'll think about it. :)

Thanks for the feedback. :D
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:31 am

Oohhh, so that's how it works, that's good then. I assumed with that brand you could have only active abilities or empty slots. Getting a save file on that issue is a bit tricky because it's hard to tell when auto-explore decided to revisit brands. It doesn't put you in an infinite loop of going from brand to brand, just forces you to walk over the same brand one or two extra times. It seems that it happens when you manually touch a brand first, then walk away and switch to auto explore.
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Saler » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:23 am

The game ask you if you want to pick up a brand even when you are full. It feels like it should tell you that you are full without giving you a chance to pick it up. I'm not quite sure which method will be better.
Also, I saw a normally generated group of demons where a single king of demons didn't have a brand. Not sure if it's a bug or not. Made a save of it in case it is.
Ferret wrote:It's funny because I mostly intended them to be a support unit: the one attack and the high Strength were more a nod to them being bears than anything else. :D
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:20 pm

I'll try the "walk onto it myself and then auto-explore" case. :D That might be enough to go on.

Hm... for UI reasons, it isn't possible to force a tooltip showing you the Brand if I'm not also giving you a prompt. :( If I switched to "can't pick up when full", I wouldn't be able to show the Brand as you step on it. I'm still looking for ways to streamline Brand management, but it's worth noting the number of Brands found will probably decrease a bit too once we're out of testing, which will "help".

It can happen sometimes that normal demons don't end up with a Brand: they only use the Brands that spawned on the level as pick-ups, so if none of those Brands're good for them, they won't use them.
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:11 am

Turn acceleration from leadership also works on sleeping targets.
About that "revisiting brands while auto-exploring" issue... I'm starting to think that auto-explorer wasn't actually revisiting them purposefully, they just happened to be on a way of whatever target auto-explorer was moving towards. That's still a tad annoying though, what if in order to pick up brands we would have to press "g", just like with corpses? And auto-explorer would target brands after all consumables have been picked up? Brand's stats would show up when you mouse over it and/or when you step on it, but instead of Y/N pop up it would be just "press G to pick up".
And a tiny balancing concern. In one of SummerSnowman's reports I saw Maj. Power with a brand that brought its strength up to 183. Isn't it a bit too much? I mean, there are some measures implemented against one stat stacking for ghosts, maybe there should be something similar for crazy powerful brands too? Power had this brand.
Code: Select all
Mi-Fr-Ac (Lv.31)
  No passive abilities
  Vitality: -20
  Strength: +76
I admit it's quite crippling, but what if it was -cunning or -magic instead? Then the downside would've been barely noticeable. And yes, nerfs always ruin the fun, but it's kind of unfair to limit one thing and let loose another. Probably doesn't warrant a nerf because even now such good brands are really rare, and once there will be more modifiers and less brands per floor they'll be even rarer.
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:16 pm

I'll fix GiveEnergy working with Sleep too. :)

Unfortunately, if I switched to "g" to pick up for Brands, I wouldn't be able to show the tooltip of the Brand automatically like I do now. :( I'll see if I can think of another way to address the issue, but I think showing the tooltip is a good thing, even at the (for now) cost of the prompt.

The stat-stacking for ghosts is almost exclusively limited to players: demons, even modified ones, will almost never have stats stacked enough to actually trigger the effect. That *is* a powerful Brand, no question... but "no passive abilities" is a pretty hefty restriction, as you noted.

The stat-stacking is really only meant to rein in attempts at 5 per level Strength or 5 per level Magic nonsense, or people who get crazy lucky with Essences early game. It isn't something most builds will trigger.
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Saler » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:57 pm

I've got a two things of note.
I've encountered on Ogre with a brand that gave him more SP per turn at cost of some strength. Seems counter productive to me.
Brand effects seem a bit of in value. I've had a level 7 brand with “No SP costs over 5”, strength +25 and agility -4 and a level1 11 brand with “No active abilities” and strength +25. That condition is more restrictive – it allows Refresh, for example, and 4 agility seems like a minor loss. The lower level brand is almost a direct upgrade.
Ferret wrote:It's funny because I mostly intended them to be a support unit: the one attack and the high Strength were more a nod to them being bears than anything else. :D
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Re: Brand Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:27 am

The Brand AI will sometimes make "neutral" decisions because it's more interesting to have an AI with a Brand than without one. +SP/turn vs. -Strength isn't necessarily a great trade for an Ogre, but it's not an entirely useless one: they do have an ability that costs > 5 SP, so they can in theory run out of SP. I admit it's not a great Brand for an Ogre, but it's not a total loss.

As for the two Brands you mention... Level isn't a major factor in Brands (the ones you mention have a roughly 25% difference power wise from Level.) I do agree I might be giving too much evaluation credit for stat penalties though, especially small ones.

Thanks for the feedback. :D
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