"Cannot Miss" changes

Discussions about possible changes and new features that might happen someday.

Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:54 pm

Hmm.. thought about this a bit more and I don't like my previous answer, since it's 1) not entirely consistent with how Block and Dodge work now, 2) It would be difficult to show the player when they actually helped.

So instead, what I think I'll do is have Block and Dodge just work normally against attenuated attacks, subject to the same modifier evasion gets based on distance from the blast point. i.e.: If an AE is dropped directly on your head, they don't help at all; at the outermost edge of an AE, you have your normal chances to Block and Dodge.

Lucky Dodge will of course work as it usually does, since Dodge itself would.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:51 pm

This is in and working now: Block and Dodge are now checked when hit by an attenuated area effect attack, and work exactly as described in the previous post. :P

I remember when I dreamed of doing character art this week. :D Kidding aside though, I think we've brought attenuation to a good place now. Pretty much everything you'd reasonably expect to help with it helps with it: being further from the center, being Agility, having evasion buffs, Block chances, and Dodge chances. The things you'd expect to make life difficult also do so: evasion debuffs, Chill, Paralyze, Stun, Shock, and Panic (Panic prevents Block/Dodge from working)

As a bonus, the AI for using AE attacks is now quite good too. Not entirely perfect... there is one issue with it I haven't quite licked yet, but it's a minor one and even with that it's still far better than it used to be. More details about that in the bug report thread wizzzargh started though. :)

Thanks again for the feedback and discussion, I think it's really made a difference here. :D
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Gaswafers » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:25 pm

Does it work with Low Profile since it works with dodge?

Edit: Also, don't forget that Overpower exists and to make it work with attenuated attacks.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:23 pm

Low Profile only allows you to dodge projectiles: it wouldn't have any effect on an AE blast. However, it will still (as it does now) allow you to dodge under a projectile that becomes a blast at the impact point (though it will help you not at all if the blast afterwards happens to include you!) Interestingly, this does mean, with the right situation and abilities, this means you can end up dodging an attack twice: Once as the projectile flies over you, and then again if you're off-center of the resulting blast. These are two separate Dodge checks, passing one doesn't mean you'll pass the other, even if Low Profile isn't involved.

Good thought on Overpower. :D Happily, the code is such that all I had to change was the conditions for Block and Dodge being checked and add in another factor to adjust them (attenuation), the Overpower calculation is already in that code. :D
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:00 pm

FYI: After a bit more testing/review, I reduced the SP costs on the attenuated non-breath AEs by 5 each. For review these include: Burning Star, Chilling Blast, Fireball, Flame Orb, Hail Storm, Snowstorm, Sudden Chill, Rain of Fire.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Seth » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:12 pm

Rather than "cannot miss" abilities, isn't the real issue with AGI that the evasiveness it grants is overshadowed by dodge passives that it has no interaction with?

Also, by reducing the number of attacks that can ignore those passives, I'm concerned that they will become even stronger than they already are. Attenuation seems like a pretty good method to tune an appropriate effectiveness level for large AoEs, in which case I would suggest a significantly reduced effectiveness compared to Evasion. It might be worth making a "Cannot be dodged" mechanic for non-attenuated attacks to hit through dodge passives while still being subjected to accuracy/evasion.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:33 am

Tying Block/Dodge/Parry to stats in probably next on the list if this doesn't quite get the job done. :D But, for now, I'm not sure I agree that Agility was overshadowed by Dodging necessary... but, I'm also not sure I agree. Too little data really. The only dodge builds I've seen since the now long ago nerf were "dancer" builds, which makes sense since they get 33% basically for free. Without Evade Step though, it's pretty hard to get a lot of Dodge, and if your Agility is bad, you're going to need that Dodge more often.

It's possible the survivors of the purge will become more powerful as you suggest, but we'll have to wait and see on that one. The steep SP discounts and power increases that got applied to the ones that are no longer cannot miss should be strong arguments for giving them a fair shot. :D Your concern here is valid, but it's a case where I want to see what happens: I've gotten in trouble in the past by trying to stay too many steps ahead of myself and I've got a little cautious about it now. :P

TLDR: You've made good points it will be important to watch, but I try to limit how quickly I make changes to major systems so I can see what effect each change is actually having.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Gaswafers » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:56 am

Putting cooldowns on dodge/block/parry abilities would kind of make them scale with agility. But then each ability would require its own cooldown.
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Gaswafers » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:07 am

Oops, I forgot to ask something in my last post.

Attenuation affects status application rates. Does that include statuses that are applied via passives, like miens?
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Re: "Cannot Miss" changes

Postby Ferret » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:48 pm

Yes, attenuation does usually reduce the odds of add-on effects from passives: passives usually just add the effect to the ability's built in effects, as a result, they would be affected by attenuation. There are some oddball exceptions, like Blood Rot/Flesh Rot, but for the most part, the answer is yes.

This is mostly only an issue for physical attenuated attacks and their related passives though: most Light/Dark attacks aren't attenuated... just the breath weapons, I think?
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