YASD: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

[wizzzargh]

Yeah, I also tend to end up with parties very vulnerable to Light.

As for disbanding demons, I know just how you feel- I'm very loss-averse so I hate disbanding demons even if it's long-term a good idea. And I think you did make good decisions in every single case you mentioned... though before disbanding Goblin it could have been nice to get Mob Cover and/or Evasion on some of your demons). Note that when you have to disband a demon to make room for a new one, if it has training points left over you will be given the opportunity to use those points.

Good Job on that Jiang Shi, I have a lot of trouble recruiting those demons. Bloodthirst and Leech Bite will be good additions to Headless. Is your plan to put Yellow Whisper on your main melee demons and Dazzling Gaze on your other support demons? I hope that works out well for you, I really like the Whisper skills

Mended lasts a long time, expect to only be able to Mend demons once in a fight. I think Ghost Bite is good on basically any demon that doesn't have a specific job like healing or better combat skills to use like Leech Bite or Inspiring Cut. When you're fighting in a corridor, you can have ghost bite demons contribute to the battle even though they're not in the front row. So I think Huo Shu is a good choice- it can mend a few times, then do ghost bites from a distance.

Keep an eye out for Ukobach- their abilities Warmth and Greek Fire might be really good with all your Ignite effects, though I've never tried it myself. Though it will be hard to decide what to lose to make room for those skills...

[Ferret]

Whew, okay. Lots of posts here. Let's see what we've got.

Getting Mending early was probably a worthy result from a Gold Matrix. Though it is limited in usage per target, it is often more than enough for standard battles.

I prefer Ghost Bite on semi-supports: critters that are primarily support, but happen to have okay Str and Agility, and on 'physical glass cannons', characters with good Str or Agility, but low Vitality. It can be nice even on a main attacker too though, it gives them a chance to contribute more effectively on hallway battles.

Bloodthirst + Leech Bite: Yep, that will be a 75% drain effect. It's part of why Jiang Shi are such nasty monsters: they can heal themselves for almost as much as most single attackers deal in damage to begin with.

A..somethings were Asrai, the first ranged Ice attackers.

Re: Disbanding... yeah, this may still be a personal preference thing. It sounds like you'd be happier saving TP for as long as possible to reduce the incidence of having to disband well developed characters? Or, at least, picking only a small number to spend TP on so that you have a few slots that you won't feel so bad about discarding if you suddenly find a new "must have" demon.

On the other hand, you're definitely expected to have to make some hard choices about abilities/demons to pursue and keep around, and which ones to pass on, and when to move on from a particular ally.

Not sure I really have any other/better advice to offer on that angle. It might get better as you go higher up though: once you've encountered at least one instance of all the basic types of abilities, variations of them are not necessarily as critical. (i.e.: The first heal ability possessing demon you run into is usually a must-have... but you may or may not care about the second one if you got the first one, or the third, etc.) You may also find there are certain demons you feel you can reliably get to and wait for before spending heavy TP so that you can trick them out immediately: you might also find there are demons whose TP aren't valuable long-term anyway and thus it's no great loss to use them early even if you have to ditch the demons you spent them on fairly quickly.

But.. ultimately, I'm giving tactical advice for an issue that may be a playstyle/preference thing, which may not help at all. Here's hoping though.

All of that aside, you have a pretty good team at the moment. Once these guys get some TP and can start spreading their goodies to each other, there's a lot of great possibilities here. Only thing really missing is some good ranged nukes, especially magical ones since you have a fair number of high Magic characters.

[Sandman25]

Yeah, I also tend to end up with parties very vulnerable to Light.

Ok, I feel better for having weakness to Light now, thanks

As for disbanding demons, I know just how you feel- I'm very loss-averse so I hate disbanding demons even if it's long-term a good idea. And I think you did make good decisions in every single case you mentioned... though before disbanding Goblin it could have been nice to get Mob Cover and/or Evasion on some of your demons). Note that when you have to disband a demon to make room for a new one, if it has training points left over you will be given the opportunity to use those points.

I did have Mob Cover and Evasion on Malingee when I disbanded the Goblin but later I had to disband the former too, right for the Jiang shi.

Good Job on that Jiang Shi, I have a lot of trouble recruiting those demons. Bloodthirst and Leech Bite will be good additions to Headless.

I usually fail to kill it in 4 turns with other characters, but surprisingly it wasn't that hard for the character being weak to Fire helps a lot and I had 50% chance to ignite it thanks to Firestarter...

Is your plan to put Yellow Whisper on your main melee demons and Dazzling Gaze on your other support demons? I hope that works out well for you, I really like the Whisper skills

Plan? I just liked those 2 abilities so I was going to use them with at least some demons. Now that you told it, yes, I will try to do it as you described

Mended lasts a long time, expect to only be able to Mend demons once in a fight. I think Ghost Bite is good on basically any demon that doesn't have a specific job like healing or better combat skills to use like Leech Bite or Inspiring Cut. When you're fighting in a corridor, you can have ghost bite demons contribute to the battle even though they're not in the front row. So I think Huo Shu is a good choice- it can mend a few times, then do ghost bites from a distance.

Thank you for the hint!

Keep an eye out for Ukobach- their abilities Warmth and Greek Fire might be really good with all your Ignite effects, though I've never tried it myself. Though it will be hard to decide what to lose to make room for those skills...

Yes, abilities slot is my main problem as usual, I replaced Fleasheater recently which was very good but was kind of redundant after finding Faerie. Probably I can remove Tireless/Fire Breath, I use Fire Breath just once in most fights because of cooldown and allies.

[Sandman25]

Whew, okay. Lots of posts here. Let's see what we've got.

Sorry about spamming... I got emotional after disbanding so many demons again

Getting Mending early was probably a worthy result from a Gold Matrix. Though it is limited in usage per target, it is often more than enough for standard battles.

Yes, I thought so. It costs 25 SP so it takes 100 SP to heal everyone. Cooldown is not a big problem unless all damage goes to just one of my demons.

I prefer Ghost Bite on semi-supports: critters that are primarily support, but happen to have okay Str and Agility, and on 'physical glass cannons', characters with good Str or Agility, but low Vitality. It can be nice even on a main attacker too though, it gives them a chance to contribute more effectively on hallway battles.

Thank you for the hint!

Bloodthirst + Leech Bite: Yep, that will be a 75% drain effect. It's part of why Jiang Shi are such nasty monsters: they can heal themselves for almost as much as most single attackers deal in damage to begin with.

Thank you for confirmation! I had myself, Zar and Headless adjacent to Jiang Shi when attacking it. Headless is immune to body so I wasn't surprised it was not attacked. But why did Jiang Shi attack Zar (agility 15, vitality 9) instead of me (agility 10, vitality 14)? Is it random?

A..somethings were Asrai, the first ranged Ice attackers.

Right, Frost Arrow as far as I remember.

Re: Disbanding... yeah, this may still be a personal preference thing. It sounds like you'd be happier saving TP for as long as possible to reduce the incidence of having to disband well developed characters? Or, at least, picking only a small number to spend TP on so that you have a few slots that you won't feel so bad about discarding if you suddenly find a new "must have" demon.

It kind of contradicts to the way I learned to play roguelikes in DCSS, it looks like I intentionally should be weaker than possible to be able to get more powerful later... This is why I wanted to see the whole content, it makes strategic planning much easier.

On the other hand, you're definitely expected to have to make some hard choices about abilities/demons to pursue and keep around, and which ones to pass on, and when to move on from a particular ally.

That's cruel

Not sure I really have any other/better advice to offer on that angle. It might get better as you go higher up though: once you've encountered at least one instance of all the basic types of abilities, variations of them are not necessarily as critical. (i.e.: The first heal ability possessing demon you run into is usually a must-have... but you may or may not care about the second one if you got the first one, or the third, etc.)

Indeed. I wouldn't take Ilomba if it had Draw Wounds only.

You may also find there are certain demons you feel you can reliably get to and wait for before spending heavy TP so that you can trick them out immediately: you might also find there are demons whose TP aren't valuable long-term anyway and thus it's no great loss to use them early even if you have to ditch the demons you spent them on fairly quickly.

True, Freybug or Echeneis were not that great. (though I didn't know Evasion Down is active for 25 turns)

But.. ultimately, I'm giving tactical advice for an issue that may be a playstyle/preference thing, which may not help at all. Here's hoping though.

Yes, I remember you saying that you have empty slots for a while, it looks like a playstyle indeed. I guess experienced players know in advance what demons will come later so it is easier to ignore something. I am sure I will not train Zombies in next game, 70% speed is too low and there are too many much better undead monsters like Chindi, Jiang Shi or Headless.

All of that aside, you have a pretty good team at the moment. Once these guys get some TP and can start spreading their goodies to each other, there's a lot of great possibilities here. Only thing really missing is some good ranged nukes, especially magical ones since you have a fair number of high Magic characters.

Thanks, I will keep an eye for it...

[Sandman25]

Ferret, could you please clarify the below?
My Zar got a training point and I am considering what to train. Yellow Whisper has 65% chance to panic and belongs to Mind school. Jiang Shi has Cunning 9, tooltip says there is -7% penalty vs level 4 opponent. Does it mean that Yellow Whisper has 65*0.93=60% to effect level 4 monster who is not immune to Mind? Also what about being weak/resistant to Mind?
Thank you

[Ferret]

Bleh, "spamming". This forum sat empty and unused for months the first time it was opened and it made me sad. That memory is strong enough that I still get pretty bouncy about any new posts here at all.

So, about Zar vs. you. The AI's calculation for who to use a damage-dealing move basically comes down to "who could I kill in the fewest number of attacks?" Agility is a factor... but current HP is one too. Given you were both higher Vitality than the Zar, and have the built in +25% MaxHP bonus all Summoners get*, you probably were far enough ahead on HP to cancel out the Agility advantage. (And btw, you were correct: Headless would have had a much lower evaluation due to Body immunity blocking the life drain... unless of course, the Jiang Shi was at full HP. But, even then, Headless has fairly high HP himself, which also makes him a low value target.)

* - The 25% bonus for summoners, for the curious, is not some random gift of mercy from me. +12.5% of it is the "unique" bonus any unique character gets. The other +12.5% bonus is the "modified demon" bonus, which is given to demons with modifiers... or to characters like Summoners and Heroes who can never be modified.

There is definitely a bit of a "power now or even more power later" dynamic with TP. I don't think it's a huge factor, but no denying it exists. As for me being cruel... well, I *am* a roguelike dev, I doubt I can successfully deny that charge.

Echeneis' abilities are definitely hard to find a home for. You kinda have to take them all or nothing for them to be very useful... a summoner can learn all 3 just with patience, but waiting for 3 TP is a big wait. Freybug... well, they *do* have Tormentor, which is a very useful ability in some builds. But otherwise, it doesn't offer much worth the trouble either (Swiftness and Low Profile are very common across the Tower, and Hinder, while useful, can certainly be done without.)

[Ferret]

Ferret, could you please clarify the below?
My Zar got a training point and I am considering what to train. Yellow Whisper has 65% chance to panic and belongs to Mind school. Jiang Shi has Cunning 9, tooltip says there is -7% penalty vs level 4 opponent. Does it mean that Yellow Whisper has 65*0.93=60% to effect level 4 monster who is not immune to Mind? Also what about being weak/resistant to Mind?
Thank you

Assuming the target has a 0% Vitality modifier, your math is correct: Yellow Whisper's 65% would drop to 60% against a Level 4 monster.

Mind Weakness is a x1.5 multiplier, which would raise the 60% to 90%.

Mind Resistance is a x0.25 multiplier, which would reduce the chance from 60% to 15%.

In general, resistance is x0.25 for magic types and x0.5 for physical types; weakness is x1.5 for magic types and x1.33 for physical types. Physical types are Slash, Impact, and Pierce. Magical types are all the others.

[Sandman25]

I see, it's the same modifiers as for damage in the sticky thread.
I guess Mind weakness is one of the worst ones, it is not checked often but when it happens the consequences can be fatal (I assume Charm is Mind, never seen it yet).

[wizzzargh]

Mind weakness is pretty bad but believe me, when elemental weaknesses get checked it can be just as lethal.
I think the 'safest' weakness might be Dark or Body- Dark is really rare and Body debuffs tend to be dangerous but not completely disabling like Mind.

[Sandman25]

wizzzargh, thanks! It is really useful to know in advance what happens on next floors. I have just met my first hero (Zaji) and it looks like I can learn one ability after killing a hero. So now I have Auraward (Type: Defense, Passive. If your last action was a Fire, Electricity, or Ice ability, you gain Resist against all three of these types.) instead of Tireless. This ability is really great for me as I spam Ice/Fire attacks and have weakness to Ice. That was hard fight, I could not damage Zaji when it had Auraward active and it resisted Terrifying Cry both times.