YASD: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

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YASD: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:13 pm

Thread for my currently in progress game of a combo recommended by Ferret. Any advice is welcome.
I picked Malingee as it was the first among recommended allies. I guess the idea is to get Block Slash and Block Pierce abilities since Malingee shares the same resistance to Fire and weakness to Ice while I have melee ranged attacks...
After autoexploring the whole Tower:1 I met exactly one monster - Echeneis. I expected some problems since both of us were vulnerable to Ice but surprisingly it was not dangerous. I didn't use Terrifying Cry since I needed to kill Echeneis in 4 turns and spending SP on Terrifying Cry would mean that my Fire Breath deals less damage. Though I suspect casting Fire Breath was a mistake: true, it cannot miss but then Malingee stepped forward and blocked my attacks so I had to spend a turn on movement. Still I was able to kill Echeneis on last turn.
I think I should learn Chilling Touch from Echeneis for 2 reasons: I lack a low SP attack and also having an Ice attack can be useful, not many monsters resist both Fire and Ice (if any).
As I couldn't believe that the whole floor contained just a single monster I used p functionality to travel between portals and it allowed me to meet 2 other groups. First I met 2 Freybugs, I used Terrifying Cry (it has huge AoE, really nice), killed one of them (their weakness to fire made it laughably easy) and then chased the surviving one (it even wasted some turns while still standing in panic). I think I should learn Swiftness, Low Profile and Tormentor from Freybug, that would fill 9 out of 8 slots along with Block foo from Malingee and ice attack from Echeneis :(
Next I met 2 Gandayahs. They were weak to fire too so I didn't even bother with Terrifying Cry, I just told my allies to help me kill one of them and then initiated a link which required to wait some time. I am sure I wouldn't fail the quest even if it required 100+ turns to wait :)
I am going to learn Tireless from Gandayah and then all my 8 slots will be filled with 10 abilities so what am I going to ignore? :(
At least I don't have serious problems with default party composition yet :)

Code: Select all
Demon Party Dump File
Version 12/3/2015, Scoring Model: 8/22/2015
Dump file created at: 12/7/2015 5:59:01 PM


Summoner SandmanXXV...
was chosen by the Eye of the Dragon,
selected Fire and Mind as their starting elements,
is currently at Tower:1,
and is still alive!



--==== Main Character ===--

Name : SandmanXXV
Level: 1
MaxHP: 42
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 9
Magic   : 18
Vitality: 11
Agility : 7
Cunning : 10

Resist: Fire
Weak  : Ice

Abilities Known:
1) Heat Wave (Type: Slash, 20 SP. 85 Power attack split between Slash and Fire. Has a 33% chance to Ignite the targets, causing damage over a short duration.)
2) Fire Breath (Type: Fire, 30 SP. 0-85 Power attack, based on the user's SP (more SP = more Power). Has a 33% chance to Ignite the targets, causing damage over a short duration. Cannot miss. Cooldown: Breath (8))
3) Terrifying Cry (Type: Mind, 35 SP. 50% chance to inflict Panic on enemies, causing their actions to sometimes be randomized. Cooldown: Presence (12))
4) ------------
5) ------------
6) ------------
7) ------------
8) ------------

Inventory:
1 Pure stone
1 Bolt rune
1 Flame rune
2 Chakra stone
1 Heal stone



--==== Current Party ===--

Name : Malingee
Level: 1
MaxHP: 32
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 21
Magic   : 4
Vitality: 9
Agility : 13
Cunning : 8

Resist: Fire
Weak  : Ice

Abilities Known:
1) Fierce Stab (Type: Pierce, 5 SP. 70 Power attack.)
2) Block Slash (Type: Defense, Passive. Provides a 33% chance to block Slash attacks.)
3) Block Pierce (Type: Defense, Passive. Provides a 33% chance to block Pierce attacks.)
4) ------------
5) ------------


Name : Echeneis
Level: 1
MaxHP: 35
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 8
Magic   : 13
Vitality: 16
Agility : 11
Cunning : 7

Resist: Ice
Weak  : Electricity

Abilities Known:
1) Chilling Touch (Type: Ice, 5 SP. 70 Power attack. Chills the target, reducing their accuracy, evasion, and movement speed by 12%.)
2) Deep Chill (Type: Ice, Passive. Increases the duration of your Chill effects by 3 turns.)
3) Headwind (Type: Ice, Passive. Ice attacks delay the next turn of targets that moved during their previous turn.)
4) ------------
5) ------------


Name : Freybug
Level: 1
MaxHP: 32
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 9
Magic   : 6
Vitality: 9
Agility : 13
Cunning : 18

Resist: Ice
Weak  : Fire

Abilities Known:
1) Hinder (Type: Debuff, 15 SP. 70% chance to reduce evasion by 20%.)
2) Swiftness (Type: None, Passive. Reduces the turn cost of movement and movement abilities by 20%.)
3) Low Profile (Type: Defense, Passive. Always dodge projectiles fired by allies unless directly targeted.)
4) Tormentor (Type: None, Passive. Restores 5 SP when you deal damage to one or more characters that have negative status effects.)
5) ------------
6) ------------


Name : Gandayah
Level: 1
MaxHP: 35
MaxSP: 125

Strength: 9
Magic   : 14
Vitality: 18
Agility : 7
Cunning : 7

Resist: Electricity
Weak  : Fire

Abilities Known:
1) Cleanse (Type: Healing, 15 SP. Removes Poison, Infection, and Paralysis.)
2) Refresh (Type: Healing, 5 SP. Transfers up to 20 SP from the user to the target.)
3) Tireless (Type: None, Passive. Increases MaxSP by 25.)
4) ------------
5) ------------



--==== Recently Slain Allies ===--

Last edited by Sandman25 on Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:33 pm

So I entered Tower 2 and encountered double fight :(
2 Raichos and 1 Gandayah and then 2 Zombies and a Freybug.
I didn't need the Raichos so used Fire Breath, then Terrifying Cry and then Heat Wave. Now I see problem with the character, it cannot use 2 out of 3 abilities due to cooldown and the one which can be spammed is melee-range only so the still alive Raicho stunned me :( I guess Gandayah is not going to be useful, I am not even sure I need Tormentor yet because I was doing nothing while at 80+ SP.
Fortunately Zombie quest (kill 2 monsters in 10 turns) was very easy, I just activated it when the last Raicho and Gandayah were heavily wounded. Still I had to disband all my demons except the new Zombie to kill the Zombie (immune to Terrifying Cry of course though vulnerability to fire helped a lot) and the Freybug.
I would post a new dump but it does not show current HP so a screenshot will be better:
Image

And now I can learn Flesheater from Zombie, that's 11 good abilities total :(
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Ferret » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:00 am

The newish monster wandering code does a fairly good job of allowing monsters to get in behind you... in Tower:1's case, apparently it was working overtime. :) I'm glad you thought to go looking for them, Tower:2 would have been rough with just you, Malingee, and Echeneis (even if those two are among the most combat capable of the starter minions.)

Malingee as a starter for this build is mostly a nod to its overall good melee capabilities... but, picking up the Block skills can definitely help too. 33% chances to block 2/3rds of physical attacks isn't bad, even at the cost of 2 ability slots. If you find a Slime, you could add Block Impact and complete the set, at that point, you're blocking 33% of all physical attacks outright. That's a pretty hefty advantage over your typical enemy.. though I admit 3 ability slots may be a price too high.

Mind's control abilities are the non-Swiftness answer to chase mechanics. :) High Cunning and good access to Sleep, Panic, and/or Charm can be a huge help with these, probably even better than Swiftness, unless of course the target is resistant/immune to Mind. Paralysis from Body can work in a similar way, as can Slow from Debuff. Your demons, if they know these abilities, will use them during chases (but as dealing damage to the target is forbidden, this only applies to ones that can be applied without doing damage.)

Learning Tireless and access to Cleanse will probably be the main benefits from a Gandayah, for now. Heat Wave can be a little expensive, but early on you may not have enough defenses/healer access to safely stay in melee range long enough to run out of SP yet. Flesheater will be a *great* pick up in that regard though: adding some good sustain should make it much easier to stay safely in melee... and then you might want the Refresh help from the Gandayah. :)

I can agree with learning at least Chilling Touch from the Echeneis. Not sure I'd bother with the whole Ice package or not, but this build has decent enough Magic to where you want multi-element access to exploit enemy weaknesses. Infectious Bite can certainly be useful too for countering healers. Sounds like you already have lots of good options for places to take your build. :)

Some early training suggestions (though, not many since you don't have many guys yet!):

1) If you plan to keep Echeneis around, Flesheater would be a good boost to its survivability. Similar advice applies for Malingee.

2) Likewise, Freybug can actually become a decent attacker if given an attack ability, particularly one that has a status effect on it since it has both good Agility and get Cunning. It's Strength is a little low, but the Agility makes up for the slightly reduced damage with a better hit rate. If you get serious about this, Flesheater could also work here... though its Hinder duties make it "late" enough to join melee where this may not be necessary.
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:00 am

Thank you for the detailed feedback, this is what I hoped to get :)

Decisions, decisions... Very good point about Swiftness being somewhat redundant with mind control abilities and also I am not a DEIE this time so no Swiftness then :)

Are there any melee demons who don't benefit from Flesheater? I guess it is a good idea to learn it for everyone provided it depends on maxHP only and basically every front line demon is expected to have pretty high max HP.

I still don't have a long term plan but probably it is ok since I don't know whom I will be able to get.
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:22 am

Goblin asked to forget Terrifying Cry. Is it some kind of joke? No way :)
Then after almost killing a red cap I realized that I probably want Intent and Dash, at least for some demons.
So I sacrificed some HP, then unsummoned all demons and sacrificed some HP again. This resulted in me having 1 HP with no allies around. Hopefully there are no enemies wandering nearby as I don't even have heal stones.
Image

And now I am lost because of
Code: Select all
Name : Goblin
Level: 1
MaxHP: 33
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 10
Magic   : 7
Vitality: 10
Agility : 14
Cunning : 14

Resist: Fire
Weak  : Mind

Abilities Known:
1) Low Profile (Type: Defense, Passive. Always dodge projectiles fired by allies unless directly targeted.)
2) Mob Cover (Type: Defense, Passive. Gain a 20% chance to dodge attacks when adjacent to an enemy other than the attacker.)
3) Evasion (Type: Defense, Passive. Provides a 10% chance to dodge attacks.)
4) Dash (Type: None, 20 SP. Move to the target position instantly. Cooldown: Charge (8))
5) ------------
6) ------------


Name : Red cap
Level: 1
MaxHP: 36
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 15
Magic   : 6
Vitality: 13
Agility : 9
Cunning : 12

Resist: Body
Weak  : Electricity Light

Abilities Known:
1) Feral Claw (Type: Slash, 5 SP. 70 Power attack.)
2) Throw Rock (Type: Impact, 5 SP. 70 Power attack. Cooldown: Luck (3))
3) Intent (Type: Buff, 10 SP. Briefly improves accuracy by 25%. Free action. Cooldown: Cantrip (5))
4) Dash (Type: None, 20 SP. Move to the target position instantly. Cooldown: Charge (8))
5) ------------
6) ------------

Name : Huo shu
Level: 1
MaxHP: 34
MaxSP: 100

Strength: 10
Magic   : 12
Vitality: 13
Agility : 9
Cunning : 11

Resist: Fire
Weak  : Ice

Abilities Known:
1) Fiery Claw (Type: Slash, 10 SP. 85 Power attack split between Slash and Fire. Has a 33% chance to Ignite the target, causing damage over a short duration.)
2) Low Profile (Type: Defense, Passive. Always dodge projectiles fired by allies unless directly targeted.)
3) Firestarter (Type: Fire, Passive. Increases your chance to apply Ignite by 50% of the original chance.)
4) ------------
5) ------------


At this point I usually start to pick random abilities :(
What should I learn, what demons should I keep in the party? I learned Chilling Touch so probably Echeneis is no longer useful to me.
I have
Code: Select all
1) Heat Wave (Type: Slash, 20 SP. 85 Power attack split between Slash and Fire. Has a 33% chance to Ignite the targets, causing damage over a short duration.)
2) Fire Breath (Type: Fire, 30 SP. 0-85 Power attack, based on the user's SP (more SP = more Power). Has a 33% chance to Ignite the targets, causing damage over a short duration. Cannot miss. Cooldown: Breath (8))
3) Terrifying Cry (Type: Mind, 35 SP. 50% chance to inflict Panic on enemies, causing their actions to sometimes be randomized. Cooldown: Presence (12))
4) Chilling Touch (Type: Ice, 5 SP. 70 Power attack. Chills the target, reducing their accuracy, evasion, and movement speed by 12%.)


So I guess I want Mob Cover, Flesheater, Tireless and probably Intent (I have lots of SP currently and I assume Intent affects all attacks even those which depend on Magic instead of Strength). Intent can be replaced with something more useful later. Or maybe I should learn Firestarter.
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Ferret » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:16 am

They wouldn't be demons if they didn't sometimes make terrible demands. :) You laugh now because it was just a normal Goblin, but if a demon with a good random modifier had showed up, maybe you've have thought about it? :D Or maybe not, Terrifying Cry is very nice. :) Negotiations can be kind of rough. They're easy to pass if you just give the demon everything it wants, but that can be a disaster. :D

It's a little difficult to point to any one plan for your party and say "this is best". :D But, I'll make some suggestions and you can pick ones you like. :)

1) I'd consider learning Dash on your main character: it can be invaluable as an escape tool, basically functioning as a weak controlled blink effect. It isn't the most exciting use of an ability slot, but there's no denying it comes in handy. Your other choices sound good, though Intent will be of less use if you plan to keep your Freybug around: so long as you have good Agility, you usually don't need both Accuracy Up and Evasion Down.

2) In general, don't be afraid to sit on TP for a bit. Yes, they do you no good when not spent... but nothing is worse than finding an awesome new demon and nobody being able to teach it things it "must" have to be used to the utmost. Goblin (everything!), Gandayah (Cleanse, Tireless), Faerie (Lucky Dodge, Healing Charm), Freybug (Torment) and Zombie (Flesheater, Gluttony) TP in particular tend to be highly valuable and should be spent carefully: If you're spending TPs from these guys on someone, it should be someone who either is going to stick around awhile or...

3) ...someone who hasn't got much else worth teaching at the moment. Part of why it's okay to teach Malingee and Echeneis Flesheater early on is because even if you don't keep them, their other abilities are rarely worth passing around, so you can use their TP to pass around Flesheater again.

4) Throw Rock can be surprisingly good early game, if taught to demons with decent Strength and Agility. A few rocks before melee is joined can make a big difference. Options for ranged attacks for your physical guys are pretty limited throughout the game, so a replacement for this isn't likely to show up anytime soon.

5) Flesheater is definitely strong on almost any melee... but, it does take up a precious ability slot, always expensive on melees, who often find they have many, many strong options for ability slots. If you use it, you have strong sustain, but you could find other ways to do that (demons with healing abilities, attacks that have built in life-drains, etc.).. though, these other methods have their own costs and downsides to consider. :D

6) Who you decide to keep around long term is a really tough one to answer for someone else though. If none of your particular demons seem like strong keepers at the moment, don't be afraid to wait for better ones. Even the early floors have some very powerful candidates for long term use, depending on your playstyle, so you may not be waiting long.

7) If you want some specific ideas, I'll throw out a few, but this is not a best idea list or anything, just some things I like that you could do with your current demons. It's not a crime to wait before spending TP though, especially when dealing with starter monsters. :D

Goblin: +Chilling Touch. Goblins are already hard to hit, the Chill debuff will only make it harder for them to be hit, and helps everyone else too. Like the Freybug, they have high enough Agility to make up for the iffy Magic. This also makes them ideal Ukobach and Kasha killers: resist Fire + Ice damage will allow them to do great work against these otherwise tough early enemies.

Zombie, Goblin and/or Malingee: +Throw Rock. Running around with three rock throwing demons would give you a nice opening barrage to hurl at enemies. No reason your main character couldn't learn it either, for that matter. Even if the cooldown rolls high and you only get one rock each, that's 280 Power of damage for "free" against the early game's largely non-ranged attackers. :) Also, combined with Low Profile, it can act as a way for your backline to still contribute during hallway battles (though Ghost Bite, which is available relatively early, serves this purpose far better.)

Zombie: +Intent: Zombies, despite their slowness, can be quite useful when summoned directly into melee as opposed to making them walk there, but that doesn't fix their iffy accuracy. This is a case where Intent can be useful, even when you already have Chill and Evasion Down flying around.
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:27 am

That's a lot of very useful advices, thank you very much!
I missed many things like slowness of zombie or its low accuracy though I did change options to display stats by default for demons. The game is tricky as players should carefully analyze all stats, abilities and resists while it's so tempting to just continue reckless playing :) Of course it does not work on deeper floors, that's why I have all those problems later :(

Edit. I've just checked stats and found that Goblin has very high Cunning (14) without having any abilities which take use of it. I guess it is some hint and makes much sense from flavor standpoint, goblins are known to be insidious :)
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Ferret » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:12 am

It's partly a lore thing, but also, one of the ways I introduce mechanics in Demon is by sticking them on demons who aren't necessarily the best candidates for them. :) In this case, dodgy abilities on a demon who isn't very good at doing damage, since its stats are largely wrong for it and it has no attack abilities. :D

I also do it sometimes to leave hints for the random modifier system. The modifiers demons can be randomly given are based on their original stats. This is why Zombies don't usually get heavy magic modifiers, for example: low Magic more or less shuts them out of "qualifying" for those.

In the case of the Goblin, the high Cunning draws it towards modifiers that apply negative status effects... which is the nasty trickery you'd expect of an exceptional goblin anyway. :D

(Note: When you use a Silver Matrix, there are almost no restrictions on what you can do. You could make a heavy magic-modified Zombie if you wanted. :D The only time a matrix won't work is if you're trying to modify a unique with a Silver Matrix, or if the resulting demon would have no weaknesses.)
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Sandman25 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:58 am

I see, so the goblin is meant to be a teacher mostly, it is not a great fighter but can improve other fighters a lot.

Speaking about matrixes, do you recommend to use them as soon as they are found? Or does it make sense to keep them for future in case I get a really awesome ally? As I don't have a clear understanding of my plans (who will stay with me for quite a while) I am afraid of wasting a matrix or the opposite thing, keeping a not so good demon just because it got a modifier via matrix.

Why don't you allow to have no weakness? Some players love OP allies :)
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Re: CiP: Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind

Postby Ferret » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:29 am

:D There are plenty of ways to still get OP allies... but, that's a rule of the Demon universe that doesn't bend. :)

Don't feel a strong need to save Silver Matrices. They're the sort of item that can *make* a demon into something worth keeping. :) As it happens, my current game has a perfect example of this available:

Code: Select all
Name : Vile Goblin
Level: 5
MaxHP: 49
MaxSP: 125

Strength: 11
Magic   : 16
Vitality: 10
Agility : 15
Cunning : 23

Resist: Fire Body
Weak  : Mind

Abilities Known:
1) Evasion (Type: Defense, Passive. Provides a 10% chance to dodge attacks.)
2) Arresting Gaze (Type: Body, 25 SP. 65% chance to cause Paralysis, causing the target to frequently miss their turns. Cooldown: Presence (10))
3) Life Siphon (Type: Body, 25 SP. 70 Power attack. Heals the user for 50% of the damage dealt. Cannot miss.)
4) Tireless (Type: None, Passive. Increases MaxSP by 25.)
5) Tormentor (Type: None, Passive. Restores 5 SP when you deal damage to one or more characters that have negative status effects.)
6) Hinder (Type: Debuff, 15 SP. 70% chance to reduce evasion by 20%.)
7) Flame Dart (Type: Fire, 15 SP. 70 Power attack. Has a 33% chance to Ignite the target, causing damage over a short duration.)
8) Draw Wounds (Type: Healing, 0 SP. 105 Power heal. Costs HP equal to the amount healed. Healing and HP cost are limited to what will not kill the user and what the target needs to reach maximum. Free action. Cooldown: Cantrip (1))


This is a lowly Goblin that received the Vile modifier from the equally lowly Zombie that was sacrificed via a Silver Matrix. Vile re-shuffles stats towards Magic and Cunning, and it shows in the results: the goblin now has decent Magic and fairly good Cunning. It also gave it two Body element abilities: Arresting Gaze and Life Siphon, both of which are amazing. Continuing in the direction they gave, I taught him other debuffs/nukes, SP recovery/maintenance to keep him able to use them, and Draw Wounds so that he'd have a good use for the HP drained from Life Siphon. I was even willing to ditch most of his starting abilities (Mob Cover, Low Profile, and Dash) since they no longer fit his new role as a mage. :D

Far from his lowly beginnings, he's now a valuable member of the team in a wide variety of situations. :D Silver Matrix didn't do all of this, but it got the ball rolling.

In essence, you could think of them as being similar to a Scroll of Acquirement. They give you an opportunity to more or less state directly what you want and you'll get some form of it.

The only real arguments for saving them are: 1) Hoping you find an even better demon to boost later, 2) Waiting for a unique to sacrifice to it, since uniques have unique modifiers they pass on that often have quirks normal ones don't, like being able to boost Speed, or giving multiple resistances, just for a couple of examples. But... on the other hand, it feels sad to die with one unused when they're so much fun. :D
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