Cunning vs Vitality

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Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:13 pm

Herbie in dev blog wrote:For negative effects, the attacker’s Cunning and Level oppose the target’s Vitality.

You compute two ratios first:

Attacker Cunning / Attacker Level+10
Defender Vitality / Attacker Level+10 (yes, Attacker Level+10 here too)

So, let’s say a Level 5 demon with 20 Cunning is trying to land a negative effect on a Level 3 demon with 10 Vitality. These ratios turn out to be:

20 Cunning / 15 = 1.33
10 Vitality / 15 = 0.67

You take these ratios, and filter them through a chart that looks like this:

Ratio -> %
0 -> 75%
1 -> 100%
2 -> 125%
3 -> 150%
etc.

For 1.33, we get a value of 108%. For 0.67, we get a value of 92%.

Finally, divide the first ratio’s result by the second. In this case, 108% / 92% = 117%. This is the percentage of the tooltip listed chance you have to land the negative effect on your target.

Weakness, Resistance, and Immunity also apply: Weakness and Resistance give large bonuses/penalties to landing associated effects, and of course, Immunity prevents it outright. Heroes also have a large amount of bonus resistance to all negative effects.

I’m trying to get better about explaining this stuff in game… but I’m not sure how I could effectively in a bite-sized fashion. Maybe it doesn’t need to be bite-sized and I should put these explanations in the back of the manual for any interested parties to read?


And this is why I don't think increasing Vitality to counter negative effects is a good idea. If my understanding of the written above is correct, then I am guaranteed to be hit with negative effect if my Vitality is less than or equal to attacker's Cunning. For example, Kasha with its Weigh Sin has Cunning 18 and it means that I am guaranteed to be hit with the ability as long as my Vitality is at or below 18. So my caster with Magic 44 and Vitality 4 will continue to put all points into Magic, 10% increase in damage for every 5 points in Magic is much better than +2 HP for every 5 points in Vitality.
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Ferret » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:22 pm

Oh, no. :( That's not what it's supposed to be saying at all. :D

The 92% and 117% listed there are based on the ability's default chance to hit (listed on the tooltips.) So for Weigh Sign, it would be 92% or 117% of 70%: 64% and 82%, respectively.

The ratio chart, translated for Weigh sin's 70%, would be:

0 Ratio: 52.5% chance to hit
1 Ratio: 70% chance to hit
2 Ratio: 87.5% chance to hit
3 Ratio: 105% chance to hit (Note: This would require a massive advantage in Cunning over Vitality... at equal levels, it'd be 3 to 1!)

The tooltips in game are a very good guide for this now, they weren't around back when I wrote this originally. :) The bonuses listed for Cunning and Vitality tell you how much they're helping against equal level stuff. Just multiply those against the base chance listed in a status effect's tooltip to see the effect. :D
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:51 pm

Ok, so for my example of XL 4 Kasha with Cunning 18 vs me:

Vs my Vitality 4:
18/(4+10)=1.28-> about 107% I guess
4/(4+10)=0.28->about 80% I guess
The ratio is 107/80=1.33, multiply it by 70% for Weigh Sin and it will be 92%

Vs my Vitality 14:
18/(4+10)=1.28-> about 107% I guess
14/(4+10)=1->100%
The ratio is 107/100=1.07, multiply it by 70% for Weigh Sin and it will be 75%

So as you can see even after putting 10 points into Vitality I am still really vulnerable.
The worst thing is that I am unaware of Cunning for future enemies, they can really have even higher Cunning and my Vitality will be even less important.
I think the problem (as I see it) is caused by step down: 0->75%, 1->100%. There is only 25% difference between my Vitality being zero and my Vitality being equal to unknown Cunning of future enemies. It is wiser to put all those points into Magic which is guaranteed to be useful (roughly 10% more healing or damage for every 5 points).
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Ferret » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:03 pm

That's fair. :) I wouldn't necessarily recommend a high Vitality strategy just to avoid status effects. Though, it may be worth remembering the same % bonus is applied to HP too. :D But, none of this is to say you need Vitality at all, any more than any other stat. :)

Part of why we don't agree on this is because it wasn't designed to have a right/wrong answer. :D Ignoring Vitality can work, pumping it high can work. :)
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:10 pm

Ferret wrote:I wouldn't necessarily recommend a high Vitality strategy just to avoid status effects.


Then we actually don't disagree I believe :)

By the way I believe Agility is the worst attribute, I cannot imagine a character who would want to put points into the stat provided base accuracy is as high as 85%.
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:22 pm

Also I see similar problem with Cunning. For example, I am a caster with Ignite which has 33%. If I have Cunning 0 and monster has even extremely high Vitality like 75 (I am XL 15 so everything is divided by 25), 33% is decreased to 16.6%, not a big deal.
If I have Cunning 75 and monster has Vitality 0 (I am XL 15 again), 33% is increased to 66%, again not that huge deal.
For reasonable values the stepdown
Code: Select all
0 -> 75%
 1 -> 100%
 2 -> 125%
 3 -> 150%


makes 33% be really close to 33% no matter if I put points into Cunning or not. 25% increase for having Cunning twice larger than target's Vitality is too low IMHO.
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Ferret » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:40 pm

Well.. if you ignored Agility completely and your enemies had even 1 point per level in it, that 85% chance has dropped to 63%... and they have a 100% chance to hit you. On the other hand, if you put 2 points per level into it... now, versus those same enemies at 1 Agl/level, you've flipped it: you have a 100% chance to hit them, and they're at 63% to hit you.

Re: Cunning, I'm going to be weird and both agree and disagree. :)

I agree that for something like Ignite, Cunning vs. Vitality isn't *that* big a deal, and it wasn't really meant to be: If you're a fire mage, you're attempting to apply Ignite every time you attack: it's probably going to trigger at some point no matter what unless the target resists Fire. High Cunning/low Vitality may alter the timing by a turn or two, but eventually it'll catch.

When Cunning starts to become more important is for say, Madness Gaze. Madness Gaze has a 65% chance to inflict Panic, costs 25 SP, and has a 10 turn Presence cooldown. In a case like this, you're putting a lot of resources into an attempt for a very powerful effect. If it misses, you've lost a huge chunk of SP and can't just try again due to the cooldown.

Even with the relatively light stepdown, that 65% chance ranges from 49% to 81% depending on whether you have 0 points in Cunning or 2 points/Level. If you push yourself and go 3/level, you can reach 95%.. almost certainty. :) Granted this is before factoring opponent Vitality... but enemies have the same issues with deciding what to put points in that we do. :D If an enemy does have a high enough Vitality to counter your high Cunning, it will have been at the expense of other stats, and hopefully your demon buddies can attack those gaps. :D
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:19 pm

Interesting. So it looks like some melee characters can be interested in investing into Agility along with Strength, right? I mean to maximize [damage x accuracy] it is optimal to put some points into both, something like 4x4 is greater than 3x5 or 5x3.
I didn't know how gazes work (maybe because I have never seen them :)), now it makes sense to me. Thank you!
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Ferret » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:47 pm

Melees for the most part should probably want at least 1/level in Agility to keep the 85% base accuracy. 2/level can definitely be a good idea too: there's something to be said for reliability. :) But, there are other ways to change accuracy too of course: the Chill debuff, Evasion Down, Accuracy Up, etc If you're willing to commit to having these effects available in your party, you could potentially go lower on Agility. I would generally agree it's not a great idea to focus heavily on Agility if your intent is pure damage though... you probably don't see much more benefit beyond 1.5/level if that's the goal, whereas more Strength will of course always help damage. :)

As for gazes, some of the starting packages available for players have these abilities. :) Vodun Mask/Mind starts with a Charm gaze, and Orb of Power/Body starts with a Paralysis glare (glare is an area effect versus of gaze :D ): when these abilities can land reliably, they become very, very powerful, well worth the high Cunning it takes to get them to that point. :) Eye of the Dragon also gets a Mind-based shout if you pick Mind secondary: Terrifying Cry. This effects all enemies near the user with Panic. It's not a gaze/glare, but has similar implications stat-development wise. If you want to experiment with what high Cunning is really good for, you can try those builds out. :) (Note: The dragon builds tend to have much lower Cunning than Orb and Mask builds, so it's a good example of how much less useful those abilities are when they don't stick as often. :D )
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Re: Cunning vs Vitality

Postby Sandman25 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:55 pm

I see. I read description of all starting abilities but what would you recommend as DCSS's MiBe in Demon? I tried to use Orb Fire/Ice but I guess my estimation was wrong and it is not an easy combo due to SP limitations. Though first floors are extremely easy due to ranged attack indeed.
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