Cunning vs Vitality

[Ferret]

Hmmm... MiBe could mean a lot of things. Are you looking for a heavy melee, a relatively simple to play build, or a high win rate for new players build?

[Sandman25]

I want to see the whole content. "High win rate for new players build" I guess.

[Ferret]

Hmm... well, I tried answering that recently over on Reddit, then saw the poor guy die a bunch playing my suggestions. Lemme see if I can think of any better ones, but until then, you can see if you had better luck with the ones I suggested there:

Eye of the Dragon/Fire/Mind: Strong close range AE potential, as well as a multi-target Panic effect. Remember to try and use Fire Breath before using other abilities, since the damage dealt is based on your SP. Also, the Gandayah's Tireless ability, which raises MaxSP, raises the damage potential of Fire Breath, and makes for a good pick up. Good starting pets would be Malingee, Echeneis, or Zombie. Recommended leveling pattern: +2 Ma, +1 Vit, +1 Agl, +1 Cun.

Hand of the Dead/Slash/Mind: Maul hits twice, and thus gets two chances per use to trigger Terrifying's +Panic effect. Yellow Whisper may seem redundant at first, but remember that it is a free action. It also has a much higher chance to stick. Thus, it can be useful when you want to try and Panic two targets in one turn (Whisper one, Maul the other), or when you absolutely need to Panic one target (Whisper + Maul.) Good starting pets would be Will o' Wisp, Echeneis, or Zombie. Recommended leveling pattern: +1 Str, +2 Vit, +1 Agl, +1 Cun.

Orb of Power/Mind/Electricity: A heavy nuker build that manages to avoid using Agility, leaving more points for other stats. The Mind attacks have low damage, but don't need clear lines of fire, and the AE version hits every enemy in range while ignoring allies. Storm Strike is a bit unreliable, but will be a good answer to the early Mind-resistant/immune enemies. When choosing new spells, try to stick to ones that "Cannot miss" so you can continue to avoid needing Agility. Good starting pets would be Red Cap, Will o' Wisp, Malingee, or Echeneis. Recommended leveling pattern: +3 Ma, +1 Vit, +1 Cun

Hand of the Dead/Dark/Heal: Use Wraith Touch constantly to steal maxHP from enemies, which will help Oppressor's defensive benefit to stay active. It may actually be useful to distribute damage among multiple targets to help that as well, since any enemy with less HP hurts you less due to Oppressor. Back off for a bit when Healing Factor triggers so it can fill you back up to safe HP levels. The key is keeping your MaxHP as high as possible: keeping a healer pet out to refill HP between fights for faster resting will help considerably. Good starting pets include: Faerie, Will o' Wisp, Zombie, Echeneis. Recommended leveling pattern: +2 Ma, +2 Vit, +1 Agl. (Can sub 1 Ma or 1 Vit for 1 Cun if you want to get into using status effects.)

Iron Dragon: Eye of the Dragon/Impact/Pierce. Mighty Roar and Stunning Blow can both inflict Stun: Stunned enemies are always hit when attacked, which negates Eat Alive's 50% accuracy penalty, turning it into a very powerful attack that also heals you (as long as the target doesn't resist Body.) Starting pets of note would be Faerie, Echeneis, Freybug, and Zombie. Recommended leveling pattern: +1 Str, +2 Vit, +1 Agl, +1 Cun. Extra note: The 50% accuracy penalty on Eat Alive can also be overcome by other means... if an enemy has been Chilled and Evasion Down'd, and your character has been Accuracy buffed, you may find Eat Alive can hit very often even without Stun.

[Sandman25]

Thank you for the suggestions, I'll try them!
A stupid question: when you recommend some starting demons, is their purpose to cover some weakness or do they have some abilities which are very useful for PC? If the latter, then I should take a closer look to find those good abilities

Edit. Also could you please share link to reddit? It could be useful for me.

[Ferret]

Sure, it got pretty deep comment-reply wise, but it's all there: https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/com ... ture_mode/

Recommendations for starters could be for either or both reasons. The posts were already getting long, so I didn't go into details on them, but choosing starters for covering up gaps in your own starting abilities, or for what abilities they offer, are both valid ideas.

[Sandman25]

Thank you!

[wizzzargh]

For what it's worth, I've mostly* had the best luck with characters who leave melee combat to their demons unless I had to wade in myself to finish something off or buy time, and I try to rely more on skills and positioning to avoid taking damage rather than counting on my stats. The fact of the matter is, if things go poorly in close combat, if it's a demon that was fighting you can just unsummon it or move on after its death. If it's YOU in melee, you may well die because Demon isn't overflowing with guaranteed escape options like DCSS and if you want to escape an encounter you need to run early and use demons to cover your escape.
*I had a sort of Vitality tank who gobbled up maxHP with Wraith touch and then let enemies hit him while having 3 different Veils to punish them for doing so, so I don't think Vitality builds are impossible. Agility does seem like the weakest stat to me though...

Contrary to Ferret's advice to level up all your stats, in my experience it's best to lean very heavily on only Strength, Magic, or Cunning depending on your main method of violence, then compensate for low Agility with skills that up your accuracy or hurt enemy evasion, and compensate for low Vitality by avoiding nasty stuff via positioning and maybe some Dodge/Block skills. Sort of like a DCSS character who trains spells for Phase Shift and Stoneskin instead of training too much Dodging and Armor. You can pick up lame demons who are 'sort of good at anything' all over the place, so I think it's better to turn your character into a specialist and leave the 'jack of all trades' roles to demons. I did throw some points into Vitality and Agility with my winning character, but that was only after many levels of just levelling up Magic or Cunning in lumps of +5.

Staying accurate with low Agility is very easy in my opinion, because of Chill effects and the easily available Hinder from Freybugs and the guaranteed Headless skill that boosts accuracy of allies, or even just using area of effect or always-hits attacks. And in terms of dodging enemy attacks with agility, well, I'm of the position that if you can't stand to be hit by every single enemy that can attack you, your priority should be making sure they can't attack you at all, rather than gambling on evasion chances. Boosting agility might give you a +30% chance to dodge compared to an Agility-dumper, but Charming the enemy and walling them off behind your friendly demons is usually a 100% chance to not get attacked. You can be pretty tough, but ultimately there's no AC to hide your HP behind- most* Demon characters are more akin to a squishy Felid or maybe a Robe-wearing Ogre than a MiBe.
*though I did have a character who could melee everything around him, heal from the damage, and heal again by eating whatever he killed. He almost killed 8 or so demons by himself after he was surrounded and unable to summon after a nasty spree of being put to Sleep- I think that was a Titans Fist with Sure Slice and Bloodthirst, so if you want to play something that can do amazing damage and be durable enough not to die, that combo plus Leech Bite from a Jiangshi or Ilomba and Flesheater and Gluttony from Zombies could be fun to try.

[Sandman25]

Thank you, wizzzargh, very interesting ideas! I actually tried kind of melee tank (I don't remember the combo but it was a Titan Fist with some HP-draining attacks right from XL 1) and my impression was the same - melee PC is harder than support because of no escape. I will try your combo too, it should provide quite different experience. We cannot have several games going in parallel but as far as I know it can be "workarounded" by installing Demon in different directories.