Matter Build Testing

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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Saler » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:12 pm

With my wiggling mass, I don't think Guilt evaluation changes won't show themselves here.
Wiggling Mass might be over powered, even more so than other Binds. It allows you to hit most/all enemies at distance and, at the same time, slow them down, slowing you to get more hits. Squeeze at least is just 1 target.
Charuns are rare in Turdak's Sanctum, right? Running into one as the first encounter kinda leaves an impression... Too bad I wasn't paying enough attention to link with him.
Druj Nasu's link doesn't say that hitting it will fail the link, but trying to will give you a warning that it will.
Panic disables Last Defense and Tormentor. Not sure if it's supposed to do that.
AI summoners seem to be a bit to biased for giving their demons Acidic, even if they aren't Physical reliant.
Middle of Tier 2 has become significantly harder with new demons. I already had 2 demon deaths to it.
I now have access to Choke and Petrifying, but I didn't have a chance to try them out much yet.
This seems to be a decent sized report, but they will get smaller over time. So I'm going to try playing a bigger chunk. And for that, I will put a bit more focus on my Crown of Glory character. Don't feel like overtaking him in Matter Build.
Ferret wrote:It's funny because I mostly intended them to be a support unit: the one attack and the high Strength were more a nod to them being bears than anything else. :D
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:44 am

Saler, 1st: Still haven't decided how I want to tweak Held just yet: it may not even be refreshable after the adjustments. :D But I'll keep the idea of reducing the %s in mind. The melt->more HP drain touch attacks are powerful, but not quite ready to nerf them yet. Conditional Power increase isn't a common mechanic in Demon, so I'm waiting to see how things play out. I've tweaked Arachne in TB3 by giving them Mending, we'll see how that works out. Not sure what the issue with Wrap Up is, can you be more specific? Paracelsus might indeed be a bit easier now, especially with the Vapor nerf. I'll tweak him again probably. :) As for Anomaly's resistances... they definitely lean a bit anti-Matter, but I'm not sure I consider that a problem yet. There are definitely themes to side-dungeons, and some of them will include tendencies towards certain resistances/weaknesses/ability types. I try to prevent them from being entirely one-sided (see: Kasha in Tower: 1 & 1/2), but I think I may be okay with some lopsidedness. Demon doesn't officially "support" the concept of mono-element builds, as tempting as I realize they may be when testing a build that adds a new element. Even then, remember that Vapors can trigger even on Matter immunes you hit with Melting abilities, and most Vapors aren't Matter element themselves. :D If you can grab a Vapor or two by Anomaly (likely using Transpose Soul) and lean Cunning, you can still go heavily Matter and have something to do.

Joe: Yeah, I definitely need to check through all the passives and make sure they're set right: Malleable at the very least shouldn't be turned off by anything at all. I'll do a pass on them before the next build. Glad to hear no AI issues yet and that Dryads at least are behaving. :D Battle healers have tended to be a rough spot for the AI.

Saler, 2nd: The "mass" spells are definitely a bit mean, but I'll wait to see what I decide on Hold in general before nerfing specific abilities. Yes, Charuns are rare in Turduk's Sanctum. :D I think I may have the Druj Nasu-style capture bug on my main bug list already, but I'll double check. Not sure what would make Acidic jump out more than any other passive, but I will investigate that too. Happy to hear Tier 2 is a bit meaner. :D

Thanks for the feedback and reports you two. :) I'll update the main post with the new bugs later tonight, only had a little time at the moment and it's gone now. :D
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:01 am

Bright blood and spiny veil also get disabled by a lot of stuff. New ooze is pretty scary now, just died to an angry heroic one and couldn't do anything about it. But regular ones are very easily killable, proper glass cannons.
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:21 pm

Gottem! Medusa survived this time. Image
Should status effect be automatically removed when Stone wears off if target was initially immune to it?
Image
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Tchey » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:44 pm

I'm really bad at this game. But i love it.

I went with the Orb guy, Matter/Body, with melee minions to tank while i pull acid and poison. Sounded fun.

Until i met a pack of ghosts, immune to body and matter, and my minions died, and then i died.
* Mon blog indécent sur les jeux indé... Jeux1d100.net *
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:36 am

Joe: Congrats on the Medusa recruitment. :D Looks like it may have been a bit close judging by the life meters on the icons though. :D

For now, status effects that are delivered while not immune won't be removed when they become immune again. Slightly off behavior I admit, but since I already have the concept of status effects being able to hit you when immune to their type (Glitch Charm) so there's no non-hacky way to fix this that immediately comes to mind.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game Tchey. :D Even if ghosts're being mean to you. :D
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby oneeyedjoe » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:55 am

That's how much damage Perseus does in one swing, Turdak was full, Vishap and Medusa were at ~80%hp.
I did notice some changes in guilt AI with Kasha, it's a little less spammy now. But when I gave Squeeze to Kasha it started mercilessly guilting everything again, even things that were out of reach for everyone (except kasha with squeeze), but instead of guilting once and squeezing Kasha preferred to refresh guilt every turn. It wasn't always the case, but for the most part it was dominating course of action.
Looks like changes to healing AI made Tremane less of a heal bot: now he only heals when in yellow HP, at least if there are weak to light targets nearby anyway that he can attack (and damn he is strong).
Gorgons still prefer staying back and using devotion at full hp rather than going in melee and biting everyone. But that's more of a Devotion problem I think, because Banshees are also guilty of overusing it sometimes, at least Banshees have good damage dealing alternative to it, Gorgons - don't, maybe that's why they consider themselves healers.
Had another case of neglection of relief usage. I was cleaning up wraith remains and linked with Leib for an easier time, but before that I threw harden at Kaw Kaw. Umbhledi just didn't wan't to use relief on it and tried to poison me (heroic with 85 vitality) and Leib (heroic and body-resistant) multiple time, while Kaw Kaw was patiently waiting in a form of stone statue. Admittedly, Kaw Kaw wasn't in immediate danger, but at the very least it would've been more of use than 4 failed poisoning attempts.
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:35 am

Hmm.. as I thought, I still have some work to do with Guilt/Pariah. Starting to think I'm going to regret opening that can of worms.. there's a lot of factors for the AI to consider if it's going to Guilt/Pariah properly and it's going to take time to get the balance right. :D

I wasn't thinking of Tremane when I made the changes, but nice to see he's a bit less heal botty. Devotion may indeed require a bit more help to get it working right, I'll put it back on the list

I'll take another look at Relief: I know of one bug with it, but that should only be affecting its priority w/ summoners. Not sure how Kaw Kaw could get left out. Hmm..

Thanks for the report. :) Saturday's pretty busy for me, but I should have some Sunday to go bug-hunting again.
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Saler » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:02 pm

What I meant about Wrap Up is that demons seem too spam it too much, even more than other single target status effects. I'm guessing that happens because Bind is both short duration and stackable.
And since this is being discussed here: The AI is probably using it because it tries not to waste healing. So, when it sees that a rather weak because of high HP Devotion would bring the target close to maximum HP without going over, it thinks using it now is a good move.
And about AI problems with Relief: maybe Heroism doesn't matter enough in AI evaluation? So, as the result, it thinks it's chances of inflicting Poison are much higher than they actually are? I think back when Heroism was basically status effect immunity AI would still spam status effect moves.
Bloodlust also gets disabled by Held++. It's almost like all None typed skills are affected.
I'm not sure if 20 SP is appropriate for Crushing Stomp. Going from single target to AoE, Impact attacks go up by 20 SP with skills like Earth Break and Quake Hammer, but Crushing Stomp goes up by 10 from Crush. Could be troublesome with builds that focus on high accuracy to make up for the halved attack accuracy.
Isn't a pair of Jotuns a bit extreme for Ninkasi's Sanctum? Not sure if that was always a thing that could happen, but it's the first time I've seen it.
Destroyer modifier doesn't has the tier 2 version of Break Down.
Once again had a demon in a Sleeping corpse encounter get 2 turns to my 1 after being woken.
Code: Select all
The ben nefilin wakes up.
 The ben nefilin gestures at your faerie.
 Your faerie is paralyzed!
 Your shikigami gestures widely.
 The vishap looks vulnerable!
 The ben nefilin looks vulnerable!
 Your jotunn charges the ben nefilin.
 Your jotunn hits the ben nefilin.
 Your jotunn freezes the ben nefilin.
 The ben nefilin starts shivering!
 Your faerie is paralyzed and cannot move!
 The ben nefilin gestures at you.
 You are paralyzed!

All of my demons got a turn after his first one, but I didn't.
Ferret wrote:It's funny because I mostly intended them to be a support unit: the one attack and the high Strength were more a nod to them being bears than anything else. :D
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Re: Matter Build Testing

Postby Ferret » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:45 am

I see. :) I will check it out after the incoming Held nerf, since that will also affect how the AI perceives.

Heroism is actually a huge factor in evaluations, but it cuts both ways: AIs account for lowered success rates versus heroes... but they also account for the fact that landing a nasty status effect on a hero is a Big Deal.

Yeah, at this point my plan (probably tomorrow) is just to go through all the Passives and Reactions and check them one by one to make sure they have the right "usable even when disabled" settings.

Crushing Stomp gets the discount because conditional effects are harder to fully utilize in AE form. i.e.: It's one thing to have one Petrified target, it's another to try and get a situation where two or three are Petrified *and* all close enough to each other to be hit at once.

The "slow summoners after interacting" bug is already on my list, just haven't gotten to it yet. It will be fixed before the full Matter release though. :)
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