YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:10 am

After looking at that list again, I'll add on that I find it strange that Phoenix has apparently been ascended with once. I've used offerings on it and linked successfully with it multiple times, and while that list shows that I often give radiant to something else I'm still a bit baffled by it only being listed once. Also, another noteworthy unascended demon is the ogre. I think I have made at least two characters dedicated to that specific task, but they failed, usually somewhere around the 13th floor. The rest I think I haven't really bothered trying with yet for one reason or another.
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Ferret » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:00 am

..wai...wait. Are you saying you've beaten Demon... nearly 70 times?!?!

H...holy crap! I don't know if people believe me or not when I say I really don't collect player-identifying metrics about the game (except for summoner names, which don't count since you can choose them per game and I have no way of knowing for sure if 2 of the same name are the same person or not), but I had no idea anyone had beaten Demon that many times!

Not too surprised Druj Nasu is a favorite: even if she starts eating leveling penalties near the end, her Cunning is so high that she can still fling debuffs reliably even with a small level disadvantage, and Poison being HP% based is always effective if you've got a way to get it to stick.

I expected Lei-Olmai to be popular. He has a really, really strong support game and useful resistances to boot. If that wasn't enough, he also can do respectable melee damage. Bruchas by rights should have had Low Profile as an ability, but I was honestly scared to give it to them given how nasty they already are, and I say that even with them being a Tier 3 demon*! I did of course know it was barely possible they'd get it from Immortal... eeee. I can only imagine that horrorshow. :P

* (Of course, when I finally add Thrones to the game, you guys will be calling for my head... at least until you manage to recruit one :P But that's a problem for another day.)

I can actually see Ogre being a toughie to ascend with unless you're willing to just let him ride the bench. Weak to Electricity and Mind is not good times, especially once he starts falling behind in levels. Weak vs. Mind is especially troublesome on a melee: many demons use Mind abilities as their anti-melee defenses.

Thank you very much for the write up.. and, seriously, thank you for playing so much Demon. :D 70 wins or so.. I can hardly believe it. :D I hope you enjoy the new Matter build once it is ready :D
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:15 pm

I'll have to say that my winrate is a little above 10% of all games (I am currently at 606 recorded runs that have concluded with a win, loss, or quit). Most of my deaths, of course, are early in the game. I think I tend to die the most from the third floor to the ninth floor; Anomaly:1 and Anomaly:2 have their share of deaths, as well as the electric-themed santums. On the other hand, my characters rarely ever perish on Anomaly:3. I'd say that Paracelsus is difficult to defeat but his party isn't too hard to avoid if they're not worth fighting at the time. By that point your party should be used to Anomaly. Even aithir and chaos, which can be rather dangerous if spawned sooner, aren't too bad by here.

For all that has been shown so far, I find matter highly intriguing. I'll definitely check it out once the time comes.

Since then I have won a few more times with some different builds.

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I find Crown of Glory the most forgiving of the Relics, and I simply like to play it a lot. While there are some builds I stick to often, I also try to experiment often with different abilities to learn how they can work together. Recently I have been using crown characters with some focus on cunning, which usually leads to on-hit passive effects and presence abilities. For this run the character had withering grasp alongside the defensive slashes; this combo would give the pc and allies greater durability. I think it was one of my best runs in recent memory, as most (if not all) enemies were defeated. Another recent character was a "super Preta" that had Ghost bite and numerous on-hit status effect abilities, which would easily tear apart many enemies. Sometimes I like making characters that take the idea of one entity and expanding upon it.

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This character managed to ascend with a demas-only party! I was barely lucky enough to recruit them all, as not that many spawned. I was also lucky that the last few floors had no Yukki onna, albeit I recall having to skip the penultimate floor because of archon Shikome and Raksashas; there wasn't much my party could do to them. Even then, they managed to clear the final floor and overall the run was solid. Only the profane demas had died once. That was how well I managed my party this run, and oftentimes I end up having to revive allies about twice or having to disregard them after their deaths for new ones. My character itself had the base healing slashes and parry, and was lucky enough to get absolving cut and normalize too.

The healer is the main healer, and the well fed demas helped with tanking hits every now and then. While a volcanic demas may seem a bit redundant, I also gave it icy blast and even managed to give it magma conjuring at Ogun's sanctum, which did incredible damage. The mindbender had its status-inflicting reliability and the profane demas was lucky enough to get Bane from its fusion after I gave it Demon's mien from its predecessor. "Ninkasi Too" was the last member to be recruited, and it had its part as support. On a related note, I barely changed the base abilities for most of them; their fire-slinging let them do tons of damage very quickly, so many enemy groups were mulched with relative ease. As a result of this run I've become more interested in the fire element, and so I've been experimenting with it more.

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My next winning character was a fiery Vodun mask with distract, hence the "eyemelter" name. Because of the really high magic, this character also had mending. For a while this character had Horrible gaze, but towards the end I got Fire Lord. There was also ever ready, tormentor, and warmth. This character also had an extra-long summoning range and quick summon, which would allow it to be on the offensive more easily. Generally I'd have one or two allies out and quickly summon the third one appropriate for the situation. I'm still trying to figure out how to play such characters.

On another note about this run, while it may seem a little redundant, the charged kitsune was pretty cool; it had bolt chain and high voltage along with its default thunderous. I gotta admit it was amusing to see large crowds of cynocephali and herd humans get delayed en masse as two individuals of the former get shocked. It also had the weakening cry which goes well with distract, and flash shock for stronger shock chance up close.

I've yet to begin the second cycle after the fiery mask.
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Ferret » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:41 am

606 games.. whew. :D Demon's fan base isn't all that large, but some of you play a whole whole lot :D

Matter has some interesting stuff coming. :D I'd talk more specifics, but I want to get things through self-testing first to shake off any major balance issues before I give juicier tidbits (since if I don't wait, I might have to make big changes.)

Summoners can definitely beat demons at their own games: modeling a summoner build after your favorite demon lets you use the fact that summoners can uber-focus stats to get better results than would ever be possible on the real demon even with a great modifier and the same abilities. :D Then too, summoners have sources of abilities that demons don't (character creation, Heroes) that sometimes can tilt the balance further.

The multicolored Demases almost look like Christmas tree ornaments or lights. :D Why did you pick Demas for that experiment anyway? :) Fire is getting at least one new ability to pair up with Matter, btw: Burnt Offering, an ability you can use on a target that has the Bound++ condition. :D

Shock requires a bit more investment than Ignite or Chill to get good mileage out of it, but it can be a thing of beauty when you get it going through increased Shock chances + special effects that trigger on Shock.

Good luck on Cycle 2 of the mask run, congrats on the wins, and thanks for the reports! :D
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:32 am

My second cycle was another Crown, and my third was a sneaky Mask. The latter was probably one of my shortest wins ever. My streak ended with the fourth cycle, which was a ghost piercing Titan's fist character. Amusingly enough, this character died on Anomaly:3, and this was after defeating Paracelsus: I ended up being wedged between two enemy groups and foolishly tried to take them on.

Too bad for me now that my computer is currently unusable (it probably can still be repaired), so I won't be able to play until further notice. Perhaps by the time the matter update is out. In regards to that, I find it neat how it looks like it ties in other elements, which could lead to some interesting combos.
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:31 am

In the meantime I have borrowed someone else's computer. It doesn't run as well, but it can still run Demon okay.

Back to the demas: I figured that they could be fairly flexible because of their stats and resistances. Their cantrip ability also made them considered just to see how much damage they could do.

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Another healing Crown, but with Retch and whatever dark ability (ultimately fester touch). I find Retch pretty intriguing thanks to its multiple effects which work even without points investment into cunning. Also, rather than going for a maj. ghoul, I tried firesworn. It gained fire breath and scorching touch, and I also gave it light veil and judge's mien. It proved to be very strong in the early tower! This was one of those runs where some allies had to be revived two or more times, namely the ghoul, vishap, and hob. I'm sure the fly did fine all the time it was around, and the rest were very late recruits.

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This was a peculiar Heart run, because I decided to try to build what an "Icy Heart" might look like. Its abilities were icy grasp, cold embrace, sentinel's cry, ritualist, tormentor, frostbite, frozen heart, and icy armor. Most were acquired through transpose soul. Several abilities were swapped, including storm call, absolution, and deep chill. This character's stats were nearly "balanced" between magic, vitality, and agility.

This was probably one of my frustrating victory runs, to be honest. Here and there most of my party had been wiped, including highly reliable healers. Even then, in spite of all the troubles for this run, I did manage to make it to the victory portal. I even cleared out the last two floors, which would include defeating Valindra for the first time in a while! I had to rely using Baphomet and an incubus to do that.

At the right times (e.g. mostly when there are no panic-inducing enemies around), the passives combination could let Cold Embrace be spammed onto whomever. Frostbite seems a little bit weaker to me since its change, but there were some situations that I figure it helped. I have also figured that frost armor is pretty good too; it's definitely a subtle defense boost, but on top of a generic defense buff my character wasn't taking too much damage in quite a few different situations. After all, this character ended up spending a fair amount of time on the front lines, which is pretty unusual for a Heart.

In spite of being almost entirely focused on being icy throughout most of the Tower, I think this character was OK in most situations, but because of poor party management there weren't that many cool synergies (like the use of winterkill or maybe just putting winterlord on everyone). After all, the default Faithful Heart abilities are usually about supporting the party in some way rather than trying to be the main damage dealer. I guess making it to the end is something for figuring out how to play a build centered around Cold Embrace. Even if I have quite a few victories, I figure that there are still many subtle tricks I've yet to uncover, and this is before a new major update that will add a new element.

These two runs weren't back-to-back, but there was only about nine failures between them. I've yet to begin the next cycle, and I'm not sure what I'll want to try next just yet.
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Ferret » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:57 am

:D I'm glad Demon's able to run on the borrowed computer. My one major gripe with Unity is it vastly inflates the system reqs a game like Demon should actually have. But, on the other hand, I've worked in Unity for several years: things would have gone much slower if I'd used something else probably.

You make a fair point: Demas' cantrip is an interesting one: one of the few Cantrip damage spells that is multi-target (if a bit awkwardly shaped/restricted in use.) Their stats lean Magic, but the good Vitality and not completely gutted other stats are enough to make them decent at anything you modify them for. :D

I don't know if I've heard of someone using Retch heavily before. :D I wonder, did its ability to shut down Breath cooldown abilities ever come in handy?

Ice's passives are pretty much all of a subtle, slow nature by design. They don't have the big impact of Fire or Electric passives usually, but they quietly do the job turn after turn, and it can definitely work, especially if you combine them with other synergistic things, like your Frost Armor + DEF Up example.

Thanks for the report, and congrats on two more wins. :D
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:35 pm

It's been a while, hasn't it? Until a week ago I simply didn't play all that much Demon.

>did its ability to shut down Breath cooldown abilities ever come in handy?
It did. Its Breath cooldown reduction is just as effective on body-resistant enemies, so it delays them a bit. It's a bit subtle like turn delaying in general, but in some situations it can give your party a minor edge over enemies. It's pretty unique; it makes me wonder if other cooldown-stalling abilities like Retch and Ego Theft will be added. I also want to see some sort of ice-based dodging or evasion-raising ability some time, as I think that could work well too.

The next run was another Faithful Heart victory; this time the character was named "Battery" because I supported allies with Refresh during this run as well as Cleanse and Calm. Resolute, malleable, and ever ready helped a lot with survivability. After a few experimental runs and even later in real time, the next winning character was a "Bump Wave" crown, which was my first Aurastrike build. The combo of cursed arc, brain knocker, icy gust, and crusader proved to be really strong, on top of some supportive passives.

More recently, I started playing again and did various experimental characters like a Vodun Mask character who mostly specialized in damage over time abilities and a "light snipe" Crown with storm needle and hand of light, all with varying degrees of success. I've figured that some builds are easier to expand upon and play than others (especially at the beginning of the game, which isn't necessarily the hardest part, but some starts you'll have to be more careful with than others), albeit I feel that even with all my wins, I could still be playing more wisely. Recently I think I've been fighting through the Glitch Sanctum better; I consider that place to be the first location in the game where you're going to have to be more tactical to do well than simply relying on brute force and some healing support.

Anyway, my latest run was a victory. It was a agility-favoring Crown who had the buffing slashes and leadership, but not Rabblerouser (I had the chance to recruit Headless, but I squandered it in favor of a ghoul). This character also had a few dodging abilities and Pounce; I don't use Pounce all that often, but this run made me think it's pretty strong in the early game, particularly if you have at least two allies who can use pounce too. There aren't that many mobs that can stand up to such an assault early on.

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I made this strange fusion of a Deadly Zaltys early on. I didn't let it keep its original abilities that it received. I managed to get its ability set completed early on, and it made for a pretty good ally throughout the game; even in the latter tower it was helpful against light and fire packs thanks to its attack options and infection-spreading; flesh eater also increased its lasting power. I think it died once and it was in Anomaly.

I was also lucky to nab an Eye Killer at Anzu's Sanctum and I gave it the Psychic modifier. It did a lot of good for my team, even though I did lose it to a yali pack once towards the end. Their ability to induce panic is pretty nice, and it helped a lot with defeating dark packs as my party was lacking in dark resistance otherwise. I also gave a Kuchisake-onna icekin later on because my party was really lacking when it came to ice resistance. It's an odd combo like Deadly Zaltys, but she was pretty strong too. This wasn't be the first time I would have given a Kuchisake a magic element modifier either.
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Ferret » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:55 pm

I keep meaning to add more of them, but I've been hesitant to add them for more common cooldowns like the Light/Dark ones because that could actually be pretty ridiculously powerful in their current "can't miss" state. I'd probably have to make them use a Cunning roll.

:D I'm always happy when someone uses Refresh on their summoner. It's usually relegated to a demon-only thing, but I've found it useful on some summoner builds and I'm glad with someone else does. :D

Out of curiosity: How did you do stats on your "Bump Wave" guy, if you remember? There were some questions recently about how to stat a hybrid character. :D

Auto-stun is the main thing that makes Pounce and its cousins so nice, I think, especially these days with movement being faster than it used to be. Very few characters have a good way to deal with it, short of being Mind immune... and oddly enough, most Mind immunes are fairly squishy physically and probably drop in short order even if they bypass the Stun. Only real downside to them is that you have to be careful not to end up isolated in enemy "territory" so to speak. Some groups're really bad to try Pouncing into, and it's not even necessarily the big melee heavy groups either (jumping into a pack of Eloko without a counter to their Pink Whisper is probably a quick way to a bad end. :D )

Indirect Debuffer Zaltys. :D Chill, Turn Delay, Infection all over the place. Stun and Shock available too, to a lesser extent. Flesheater + Gluttony can definitely help with sustain: provided the targets aren't resist/immune to Body, it heals a heck of a lot of HP.

Psychic Eye Killer is probably terrifying even if it gets no abilities of note: Muddle Host backed up by sky-high Cunning is nice enough, but that crazy Cunning doesn't hurt Shock Blast and Flash Shock's Shock chances either. If you throw on some +Shock passives, it could really go somewhere.

Kuchisake actually aren't the worst candidates for magical modifiers, particularly a hybrid one like Icekin. Their Magic is low, but not entirely gutterballed, so it can come back up, and their stats are actually well-suited to phys/mag hybrid modifiers in particular. :D

Thanks for the report, and congrats on yet more victories. :D
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Re: YAVP: Faithful heart, healing and fire.

Postby Remora » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:27 am

>Out of curiosity: How did you do stats on your "Bump Wave" guy, if you remember?
Because of this run being completed months ago, I don't recall exactly right now. I do think that magic was favored much less than everything else, being like a cherry on top for the damage my PC can do.

Since then, I have won a few more games with magic-melee Crown of Glory characters. I've found that Hinder + Tormentor is a very good pair of abilities for them: Tormentor is very reliable for such characters to earn their SP back, and Hinder not only triggers its conditions but the evasion debuff naturally makes attacking enemies easier. It's great for a large chunk of the Tower, and even later still it can be reliably replaced with Hinder Host, Vitiate, or even Vitiate Host. It's not all that subtle but I think playing as Faithful Heart characters has helped myelearn how to do that sort of "buff/debuff before getting up close" tactic, but instead with a character that is more armed to fight.

Here's a couple runs from a couple weeks ago that may or may not be my last successful ones before the matter build is finally released:

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This Crown dude began with the healing slashes and brain knocker. This build relied on the Hinder + Tormentor combo detailed early, and had bloodlust as well. With these abilities I could reliably use Reviving Cut multiple times in a row. This character also had Horrible Gaze; at one point I had the opportunity to get the accuracy-buffing cry for free, but squandered it. The run went on for a month; I don't recall much of the first half of it, as the latter half was completed within a few days.

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Kuchisake-onna is probably my favorite demon ally right now. She is probably one of the more flexible mid-late tower allies. This one here had been repurposed into a Ruhin-like ally, and she was pretty good at her job. The lack of mind resistance did make her less reliable against enemies that could spread panic and whatnot, though, provided she got too close (the AI seems pretty decent at letting buffing-centered allies keeping their distance). On the other hand, enemies that relied on inflicting body status effects were rather ineffectual.

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I also repurposed a Civatateo into being the party healer. I do recall that in the later tower of this run, these two were such good allies that they didn't have to be swapped out often.

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This was an odd run. I had no idea what I wanted to do with this character. I think I just wanted a straight-forward fighter with all three basic melee attacks, but I never got a pierce attack. I had smash and heavy slash, as well as polar rush, calm, mind reader, and some supportive passives. Not long after clearing Ninkasi's sanctum I had grown oddly bored of the run and decided to try to rush to the end of the tower ASAP. In spite of being underleveled, I managed to do it just fine; the game even seemed oddly generous on the last few floors, on which I found portals to the next floors very easily. I also got an ogre to ascend, and just for amusement I gave my kuchisake all of its abilities before ascending.

Unique strat moment: I got away from a light group with most of it having the "sulfuric" modifier. I recall them having Incinerate. I managed to escape them by using Polar Rush on my hob, who was standing fairly distant in a corridor away from the dead end room. It was almost as good as using a wind card, which could have gone slightly farther at most. I managed to outrun the group with ease.


I also had a dream about Demon last night, even though I haven't played it since the latter victory here. In the dream it seemed like I was watching someone else play the matter build, and there were oozes being encountered and observed. I think the game had some odd animations that don't resemble anything in it right now.
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