Does playing a melee character seem weak?

[--DuskWulfin]

Hey, so I was just wondering if anyone else finds melee builds seem be always weaker than a ranged build? If something goes wrong it seems like its always a tank that dies, which is game ending if you're the tank, and not really too bad if it's your demon that dies. Plus most demons seem like they can at least be as strong as you are, giving less reason to put yourself at risk. (For example, dancing skeleton dude and shouting ogre guy seem about as good as any player build will be). The only time I have any success with melee is using dark on the undead hand mostly because once you get enough max health built up nothing early can really threaten that, whereas any ranged build (healing, buffing, debuffing, damage dealing) can get me at least most of the way through the anomaly. Does the player have any advantages to being a tank over using demons as meat shields?

[Ferret]

Hey. Welcome to the forum Dusk. Pretty sure I've seen you in the scoreboards a fair bit.

Melee summoners have always been a bit tricky, for pretty much the reasons you describe. They do have a few small advantages though:
* They always get the 12.5% MaxHP bonus for being unique and the 12.5% MaxHP bonus for being a 'modified' demon, automatically, whereas most demons only have one of these bonuses.
* You have full control over their stat development, and can learn Hero abilities.
* When you need to summon new allies, you're able to put them right in the thick of things since you're right there yourself.
* You're in a better position to use most combat items.

That said, those advantages *are* small, and melees probably are a bit harder to play as the main character, for the reasons you point out, plus the fact that, as summoners, they have to spend a non-zero amount of time doing demon management during combat. I do plan to address this a bit better once I get to adding summoner perks, but I haven't gotten to that on the schedule just yet. It's looking likely it will be either the first or second thing I do once currency is added, which is what I'm working on now.

Summoner perks will basically be summoner only abilities that influence how summoner-specific mechanics work. Each relic will start with different ones, and you can earn more by defeating the enemy summoners present in the Tower.

The following is highly speculative, not fully designed out, and definitely subject to change, but...melee summoner relics will probably start with summoner perks such as:
* Quick Summon (summon is a free action, but has a one turn cooldown) [Reduces the number of turns spent on summoning/unsummoning.]
* Quick Unsummon (unsummon is a free action, but has a one turn cooldown) [Same idea]
* Ranged Summon (extend summon's range to 3) [Lets you summon behind or in the middle of enemies you're tanking for pincer attacks)
* Sacrifice (enables the Sacrifice summoner ability, allowing you to sacrifice an ally to restore yourself) [If you're willing to set aside 1 or 2 stable slots for 'food', this could be a powerful recovery tool]

[--DuskWulfin]

Ok, neat that sacrifice ability might be fun since I do always have a few meatshields around I don't like, and if I have a lifedrain ability sometimes a pet does become a sacrifice anyway in a pinch. Side question, how do multiple dodge abilities stack? Is it additive or multiplicative?

[Ferret]

Additive. If you have a +20% Dodge ability and a +10% Dodge ability, your total Dodge is 30%.

[--DuskWulfin]

Right then. Currently have 70%*1.13*1.23=97% dodge. Can confirm this is ok for a melee build.

[Ferret]

Dodge can get pretty up there.

What's the *1.13 and *1.23 though?

If one of those refers to Agility, I should add that Agility affects the chance of a "Miss" result, not a "Dodge". Don't get me wrong, it still helps, just not by contributing to Dodge%.

[wizzzargh]

Hey, so I was just wondering if anyone else finds melee builds seem be always weaker than a ranged build? If something goes wrong it seems like its always a tank that dies, which is game ending if you're the tank, and not really too bad if it's your demon that dies.

Yup, you summed it up right there why Melee is hard. Sure there's specifics like how summoning/unsummoning is something summoners have to do a lot and that's safer to do when you don't have 3 Oni clubbing you to death, but really it's the unavoidable fact that you're just much more valuable than any given melee demon you might have.

Summoner perks will basically be summoner only abilities that influence how summoner-specific mechanics work. Each relic will start with different ones, and you can earn more by defeating the enemy summoners present in the Tower.

Though those are some neat sounding player buffs, I don't think they will do anything to stop Melee Summoners from simply being the most risky strategy. Heck, I don't think there IS a way to make Melee not the most dangerous strategy without totally revamping the game. It's not really a matter of balance, I think. Melee summoners can do some impressive foe-smashing shenanigans and can do it with a lot more SP efficiency than ranged combatants- it's just that at the end of the day, it is safer to be a Summoner with literally no skills who is on the edge of LoS than it is to be an excellently-skilled summoner adjacent to an enemy.

[--DuskWulfin]

Yeah the 1.23 and 1.13 was agility and mind reader, didn't know they didn't work on dodge. Either way, it seems you can dodge emit sparks. Does evasion not mean dodge stat? Like is the evasion you get from agility different from dodge skills?

[Ferret]

Yeah, "evasion" refers to the chance for an attack to "Miss". No bearing on Block, Parry, or Dodge type defenses. Accuracy also has no effect on those, even an attack with a 120% chance to hit can be blocked/parried/dodged at the full %.

The one exception is when an ability says it "cannot miss": such abilities never Miss, and can also never be Blocked, Parried, or Dodged (except by a friendly unit with Low Profile, if applicable)

[Galthaar]

I think to balance the fact that a melee character will allways be riskier, they could have a starting passive skills that should be unobtainable during the game, in addition to those they currently starts. For example they could choose an unique skill between the following (just ideas of course, and the numbers should be obviously balanced if they were implemented):

- all defense skills effects are multiplied by 1.10

- multiply hp regen by 1.25

- basic attack have a power of 70

- the character gets 1 extra stat point per level up, usable anywhere except magic and cunning

I think the skills generally should improve the character himself, not usability of items or monsters. I hope you keep on your great work Ferret, I know how game development can be very frustrating, but you are building a gem here.

- edit: I forgot to add that this unique skill shouldn´t count as 1 of the 8 obtainable, because this would practically kill this advantage.