HP sacrifice and retreat

[Sandman25]

I think when a link is initiated and monster is asking for HP to join the party, it probably should not apply to monsters with normal speed.
A slime has just asked for about 75% HP and I happily traded it because only slime monsters were in line of sight so I safely ran (pillar dancing in DCSS) while waiting for HP to restore.
Thank you for changing stairs, it is great to lose demons as early as Tower:2

[Ferret]

Generally speaking, I agree with the idea here.

But, Tower:1 and Tower:2 are the only floors where ranged attacks are rare, and I think it is only the combination of normal or slower speed demons + largely melee only enemies that makes this feel safe. Also Tower:1 and Tower:2 are the only floors Demon holds back at all, and even then, it only does so in four ways... but making many of the residents of those floors relatively easy to recruit *is* one of those ways, so in the case of these two floors, I'm okay with Slimes being largely a free ride recruitment wise. (If you're curious: the other three ways T:1 and T:2 hold back are: not many ranged attacks, smaller than normal enemy groups, and no modified or out of depth spawns allowed.)

In the case of Tower:3 on, a fairly good sized percentage of enemies possess ranged attacks, and even if the current group doesn't have any, there could be one lurking around any corner. You might still get away with draining yourself to low HP many times without one showing up to finish you off... but, it is definitely a risky behavior that I feel will eventually catch up with you.

I'm glad you like the stair change. I approve of it myself. I still worry it may prove long term to be a little overly heavy handed... but I like that potential problem better than the real problem stairdancing was.

[Sandman25]

I see, Tower 1-2 are very easy indeed, it makes sense.
Have you changed "out of depth spawns" for lower floors along with stairs change? How is one expected to deal with them other than stairdancing or jumping to next floor? Not that I have seen any, I tend to die before Tower:5 anyway

[Ferret]

Hah, you say that, but 80% of all games end on Tower:1 and Tower:2 Granted, once you get the hang of things, that tends to stop happening, but even with the various features designed to make them a bit easy, there are still plenty of ways to run into trouble. Malingees, anything involving Raicho, Red Caps if you aren't careful of their limited ranged abilities, etc. Raicho.. heh... I think it was before your time, but I had to nerf those guys in particular 3 or 4 times to finally find a configuration wimpy enough for them to stay a Tower:2. Even now they're probably the most dangerous thing in the first two floors generally speaking.

Anyway, out of depth encounters tend not to be a big deal in Demon... you often won't even notice when they happen unless it causes a unique to spawn a floor or two early, or causes a major mechanic to show up before it should. Both of these cases are why the "no out of depth spawn" rule was extended from the original just Tower:1 to both Tower:1 and Tower:2: Having West show up on Tower:2 was ridiculous, and Ukobach packs were even worse, especially if either ended up being your first encounter on Tower:2. One of my many criticisms of DCSS is that it's a little too willing/okay with the idea of completely 8-balling you on the first several floors, so it's something I'm trying to avoid in Demon.

But, other than those types of cases, all an out of depth spawn usually means is you'll be fighting a group that has one or two levels on you, and may include some monsters you haven't seen before if you haven't gotten past your current floor in many games. You might need to be extra careful and/or use some items, but I would not expect most cases of this to require a total retreat unless you're completely out of luck and you get an out of depth pack that happens to be the sort of demons that your current team/build is weak against (say, an Angel pack if you're running with lots of undead and demons).

[Sandman25]

Well, I did fight some demons which were higher level than me and all my allies so I guess those were out of depth...
West on Tower:2? That's scary, there was a single game where I killed it on Tower:1.5 (or how is it called properly? it is a bit confusing that entrance to Tower 1.5 is on Tower:2 IMHO).
Speaking about Red Caps. Does duration for buffs like +25% Accuracy depend on Magic (probably Cunning and target's Vitality for debuffs)?

[Ferret]

1 & 1/2 is actually "after" 2: it's a side dungeon that "physically" exists between T:1 and T:2. Calling it Tower:1.5 is fine.

You will sometimes when new to a floor find demons one level above you. They're at the expected level for that floor, but you haven't caught up yet. But I should add that side dungeons do not necessarily play by the usual rules. Tower:1.5 can actually spawn some demons as high as Level 6, even though the normal level for that floor is only 2. This is normal for side-dungeons: they're expected to be rough neighborhoods, but the rewards are awesome too.

Buffs don't use any stats at all. In theory, that makes it sound like just anyone can use them effectively... and on the surface, that's true. But, buffs often have high SP costs or cooldown types that can get in the way of whatever else a particular character might be trying to do with their resources.

[Sandman25]

Thank you. I will start using debuffs with my front line, the demons often have low Magic attribute and it is good to know that the attribute is irrelevant.

[Ferret]

Wait. Maybe we got confused.

You said buffs in the first post, debuffs in the second.

Buffs don't use any stats. Debuffs use Cunning to determine if they hit or not. However, duration for debuffs, like duration for buffs, isn't affected by stats.

But yeah, assuming we meant buffs, the self-cast buffs like Intent, Fade, etc. are meant for demons who are primarily fighters/nukers but still want to buff themselves a little. In particular, melees have low SP costs on their main abilities anyway, so throwing 15 SP every several rounds into a self-buff cantrip is no issue for them. It can be a little more problematic for nukers, who often need to manage SP more carefully... but may still prove worthwhile for Fervor (self +POW) and Intent since it'd help them nuke things down faster.

[Sandman25]

I see now, thank you.