Nerf stairdancing

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Nerf stairdancing

Postby Sandman25 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:50 pm

Hello!

First of all, thank you for this very unusual game!

I am coming from DCSS and I see that stairdancing in Demon is even more overpowered than it is in DCSS. I use Ctrl+movement to retreat to stairs, then focus a single enemy, kill it and retreat to previous level to heal. After healing I resummon some allies, use the stairs, kill another enemy and retreat via stairs again and so on. It works even with very fast monsters (I lured 4 "blue fish" across half-T:4 to the stairs, dismissing almost dead allies along the way) and very powerful monsters (2 jingashis, if I was unlucky with attacks I just retreated to heal and tried again). Luring monsters to stairs is somewhat tedious and repetitive.

I've read some complaints about it on roguetemple and as far as I remember you were going to do something about it so here are some ideas (probably bad ones but anyway :)).
1) Make it similar to DCSS: adjacent enemy monsters go upstairs along with PC, non-adjacent allies stay on previous level (and can die there if are not dismissed soon).
2) Make allies who were not adjacent to PC when retreating via stairs stay temporarily disabled (they cannot be dismissed/summoned unless PC returns back to the level where they were left)
3) Give a temporary penalty for re-entering a level. For example, decrease allies cap to 2 from 3 for 10 turns.
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Ferret » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:31 pm

Hey. :) Thanks for playing, and for signing up for the forums. :) I'm glad you're having fun. :D

Re: Stairdancing, thanks for reminding me about this. It had kinda fallen off the radar. I kind of loathe it myself, and DCSS is a big part of why.

The solutions you proposed are pretty good. :) But... here's a thought. Would it be terrible if I made all the up staircases one way? Just because other games let you go back doesn't mean Demon has to. :) What do you think? It'd definitely solve the problem.

Keep in mind I already ensure nothing spawns "too close" to stairs, so you won't (and don't even now) get stair trapped. :)
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Sandman25 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:38 pm

Making all stairs one way was too radical so I didn't dare to suggest it :)
I am not sure it will work though, in DCSS there is usually an exit from Ice Cave/Volcano and other optional portal, also player has lots of escape options in Pandemonium which is optional too. Does Demon have anything like teleportation or blinking? If not, I suspect changing all stairs would require some changes for balance, I don't think there was a way to defeat those 4 "blue fish" monsters and they are faster than PC.
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Ferret » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:50 pm

Demon has a built in escape of a sort already: if you're willing to have some buddies out taking hits, you can retreat while you back off from those, then unsummon them to safety as well, repeating if necessary. It can be useful to have some solid tank demons for this purpose: they're going to need to be able to take some hits. The AI doesn't cheat when "looking" for you, so even a faster creature can be escaped if you can use this technique to lose them with help from an intersection. :)

There's also the relatively rare Wind Card item for a controlled blink effect, and the Short Jaunt ability (Orb of Power can get it) for an uncontrolled blink. For that matter, the Swiftness passive helps considerably too (as does the Dash ability that'll be in Sunday's build.)

For branch portals, I'd just use the DCSS solution: you can exit freely, but once you do, the entrance closes. You can escape, but you're leaving the XP/recruits/items behind.

I'm not 100% sold on this scheme yet, but I'm coming around to it. :) Most of the other solutions to stairdancing end up having complications or are just annoying to code all the edge cases for. Making most stairs one way kinda fixes the problem nicely.

Unfortunately, it's too late in the cycle to slip it in the ARRP build, but this will be good to do for the next build for sure.
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Sandman25 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:02 am

If Demon has so many escape options, then one way stairs can work indeed. I guess it should not be too hard to implement so you can try it and see how you and players like it. Thank you for quick and detailed feedback ;)
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Ferret » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:58 am

No problem. :) Thank you again for bringing it up here. :D
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Re: Nerf stairdancing

Postby Yax » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Worth a try. I'd like an item that takes you to a friendly portal or something or another escape. I haven't used sausage dancing in a while, some spawns like akeito and centaur won't allow it easily as is, but I suppose it's worth nerfing. There could easily be a consumable that takes you down a floor.
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