Does this game needs more ways to deal with ranged attacks

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Does this game needs more ways to deal with ranged attacks

Postby Bormoth » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:24 am

Sorry to writing so much without reasonable study. Though from what I got, there is pretty unfair skills in the game, no the most unfair skills are not super skills you see so often, but regular dart skills, especially if they come in large pack of mobs. 10 SP for 55 ranged attack seems fair, except disenging from dart storm is nigh impossible in some cases. The only way to have chance seems to have blocking skills(random), and wind card(or was it zephir?) Both are pretty rare, There are also Paralisis, and charm runes but those are rare and don't help against packs. Even mass heavy damage skills are not scarry because they are usually 15-20 SP and not so deadly.

Body blocking is nigh impossible because usually you can't summon 3 mobs at once near you, and those dart mobs might get to you, especially they are quite capable focus firing. If we could get some either cantrips or items helping escape more often, and more or less common to have some escape options.
Things like Lulaby horn (1 time use put everyone to sleep) Or butterfly mask(summon several 1 HP butter flies for enemy to target). Like I find those things fairly useful in other roguelikes. Even things like call demons: temoprarily summon all your demons(even if they summoned) around you even if they summoned, they are stunned, unsummon all of them in 3 turns. Basically different escape and safety option, comming from fairly regular(or in form spell cantrips you could use on miracle like cooldowns) or items would be nice. Ranging from cheap and fairly common but not really too reliable to you would escape(maybe just once too), if you have it but you need to be lucky to find it or complete one of brunches.

Ofcause if I am completely wrong from my nubish point of view I would be glad to know too preferably with ways other deal with such scenarios.
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And ferret I was surprised you being away, but thought you just busy doing something so no worries. Thanks for being active and unswering all the questions. So one more suggestion, maybe more information on how Damage, damage reduction, mixed damage types, and such, basically most unswers in answer sections that are more or less fixed, would fit good in manual or ingame help. Even if you don't specify some constants like how much energy you need to kill avarage statted creature, which may differ from build to build. Because I found that topic far more useful than help.

But it is food for thought though not necessary would be good soon, but it would be helpful for some people that download game and starting out:
Like such simple questions is it fire or pierce skill, it says pierce with fire damage, is fire damage derieved from strength or Magic. Does both parts of skill trigger twice some effects if valid or once, or maybe only physical perks twice. Those seemingly clear and simple questions are not so clear and simple options for other players. Especially when it comes to skill power impact and vitality impact which looks insignificant early on (1HP per Vit is not a gain, but I might imagine in higher levels it might give more judging by formula, but most players don't know it. Like why my raicho dies so fast, and has so little HP, and why suddenly Slime is so tanky(though it is a bit more advanced stuff many don't ask why slime is so good(Has more HP than any of it's weaknesses increase damage) xD)
Bormoth
 
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Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:51 pm

Re: Does this game needs more ways to deal with ranged attac

Postby mbj » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:07 am

Here are some ways for dealing with ranged mobs (like dart spam or smite-targetted can't miss spam either of which will kill you in a single turn if you're weak to it.).

Tactics:
1) Once you see a group with ranged enemies, summon a demon resistant to that element to tank the hits and try to make them burn all their SP.
2) Walk away, using your demons as decoys. If you don't want them to die just desummon which ever is low health has you hobble away. Make sure you break line of sight quickly by walking around a corner if possible.
3) Consumables (there are AoE runes to put enemies asleep, debuff them, damage runes that your opponents might be weak to guardian gem to boost party defense, wind card to controlled blink far away instantly, probably others).
4) Link with them and try to recruit them if they are a negotiation link. They should usually be resistant to their own attack so if you succeed you get a free demon to tank hits. If they are a "help me kill x enemies" link, you can completely break up the entire pack one at a time by linking with each as they kill each other.

Abilities (some good for not dying, some good for running toward the enemy, and some good for running away):
1) Juggernaut - gives you defense and makes you move faster if you get hit after moving toward the dart spammers. Pretty sure it triggers for each hit in a single turn I think?
2) Evade step - give you more evasion after moving
3) Dash - lets you travel a few squares instantly
4) Cantrip/presence defensive buffs (fade/prepare / evade shout) - good for not dying
5) Short jaunt (not that good) - either teleports you out of sight or maybe teleports you much closer to the enemy.
6) Pounce/Leap attack/Bull rush/ any of the other 100 charge/jump abilities that ferret has put in the game - lets you close a large distance from the enemy instantly, while also stunning it.
7) Haunt/Harass/whatever else (Ferret added like a hundred of these abilities too) - teleports you right inside the ranged group and delays an opponents' turn. Pair this with a free action whisper ability like pink (eloko)/yellow (zar)/blue whisper (lilim) to debilitate another opponent, and then still have time for ANOTHER action all in the same turn, while taking out 2/4 of the ranged attackers temporarily.

Note that once you and your party are adjacent to the ranged attackers, they function similarly to any other melee attacker. The main issue with ranged attackers is closing the distance. Unless they're smiters that have a type that your player character is weak to, like angels or easg saints or whatever. You literally can't even have them on your screen without dying instantly.
mbj
 
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Re: Does this game needs more ways to deal with ranged attac

Postby Bormoth » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:17 am

Hardly works, those demons are good at focus firing. In fact one Ukoback(3 fire rats) is hard but managable. Hero with darts is also, 2 ice spirits are easy. 4 raichos with thunder darts, or 4 chaoses with holy darts nooo, even those fiery faces with fire darts sometimes harsh on the open. Smite spells are big deal weaker and usually threat early on and far easier to Lure SP out which I did with good tanks. The problem tanks are not good enough because formation
EEEE
.T.
.P.
(T tank, E - enemy P - player)
Pretty much allows side enemies to shoot you freely, not saying tank is focused down misarably, if he is more prefered target.
Also smites cost more SP so it is less of the problem. 10SP and 5SP standard restoration is 20 turns of dart barrage, and even than every other turn poke. Enough even ruin resistant to that element tank, and tank not able to tank because there is no cost in darting your healer,(especially if it is weak, to that element.) Basically if your tank is hard to kill they would just ignore it, and solo it would just die.
Decoy part works sometimes, and usually doesn't like with melee. What are you saying are so rare, never seen aoe debuffs, only once or twice guardian gem, and I almost always have attack down shout affecting each of them still the problem is not in damage output like with tri lighting or Raiju's nova which is harsh but still managable.

Dash, pounce, bull rash, haunt, stalk, ice dash. Al of this tend to get you more in trouble in such groups, becuase now they all shooting you point blank. Yes jagernout is helping as long as you don't attack, except you might not have one, or should have other plans. The problem is getting whispers, and proper mind attacks. And those not even escape moves, unless you resolved to kill your healer, with your own pounce. Though haunt and stalk work fairly harmless, and only one which actually helps you escape is dash.

Yeah ranged attackers function like melee in melee except, the main issue with range attackers is impossible to disangage, or shuffle agro, because if you step back they would shoot you anyway because you are still most tasty target in range, or your demon Y if you are not scariest, but than you probably lucky, because you might summon another demon once first one is about to die.

And the main problem is not even in that darts are strong, they are not, they are well priced for their damage, it is just those suicidal all or nothing groups of demons are problem, the game may kill of 10 lvl 4 enemies on lvl 10 character in chance to kill it, but player is forced to take care of his demons unless he wants seek rare high level ones. Zar's confusion is good, though not on Zar he is so squishy that even single mob can squish it sadly he is good ranged head hunter though, as he may pounce over main lines, but melee sadly, all other demons are seem to be far deeper haven't met them yet. Same with haste presense or buffs sorry, or slow debuffs, or presenses.
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thanks for trying to help though but I am afraid you haven't said anything new. And this is why I am telling this game needs some sort of more or less common items to escape danger, because for now the most strong tactic I found Enemy Sense, and just game corridors to make them , come in pairs to lock FoW, it is just looks a bit gamy.

P.S. In terms of light darts I am even resistant to light inherantly(No soul armor shenanigans, crown relic), and those can even miss and neither smite casting.(though my evasion is not strongest, mostly crown so it is vitality and strength.)
Bormoth
 
Posts: 32
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Re: Does this game needs more ways to deal with ranged attac

Postby mbj » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:59 am

Night rune is AoE sleep and curse rune reduces speed, evasion, and accuracy I think. You also have charm/paralyze glyphs. But yea they are rare.

4 chaoses with holy darts nooo

haha :lol:

As for the problems with the formation, you don't need to see the enemies (nor your tank) for them to attack your tank. You can also have your healer(s) far enough away from the enemies that they won't be able to hit them, but the healer can still heal the tank.

The point of those abilities are to close the distance fast so they don't get free attacks on you or your party, and so you can engage them at mostly the original HP.

There is a problem with disengaging, but you should be able to focus fire at least one of them down before retreating, and their SP should be fairly low too, especially if you've baited them with a tank before fighting.

But if you feel that some ranged battles are impossible, then just don't fight those battles. You don't need to kill every pack of enemies to win the game.

Oh and I forgot to mention the obvious solution, fighting fire with fire (i.e. ranged spam with ranged spam) is very effective when you have a healer. The other side will just die to attrition because they can't heal as fast as your team, and you CAN disengage/retreat without much risk in a ranged vs ranged battle. Ranged status attacks (like ranged physical attacks with on-hit status effects and gaze attacks) and debuff attacks (accuracy/offense down) are also very good for cutting down on the enemy DPS. Pick a summoner start with ranged attacks, and try your best to recruit early ranged attackers like ukobach, or aithir (easy because it's a negotiation) from anomaly.
mbj
 
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