Oni in Rush's sanctum?

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Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby oneeyedjoe » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:52 pm

Isn't it a bit too harsh? Lvl 17 demon in lvl5 sanctum? I've learned how to deal with raijus in ccoa's sanctum, but this one I am not quite sure. At least raiju is squishy. But oni has 80 hp and hits like a truck + decent chance to stun combined with double melee attack can lead to some stunlock bs. Thank god for the bronze offering, but what if I won't be that lucky next time :cry:. (Also oni doesn't really fit into this sanctum thematically; I mean what does Japanese demon have in common with European abbeys?)
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby Ferret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:12 pm

:D Strictly by the numbers, he should be easy! 27 encounter points (1 Level 17) vs. likely 60 on your team (4 Level 5s, not counting inactives) Granted, he is a particularly nasty 27, which is why I didn't even it up by making it a group of 2, but even so I think you'll be able to figure out how to deal with him. :)

As for theme, Oni fit the theme perfectly, but the theme is "angels and demons hanging out together", since that's sort of Friar Rush's lore, in a very loose sense. :D
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby oneeyedjoe » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:18 pm

Well now oni kills lvl 5-10 demons left and right in 1-3 turns without any help from my demons or me, I can only imagine what he can do to summoners. But numbers are numbers I guess, can't just go against them with nothing but gut feeling.
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby Ferret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:25 pm

:D Well, there's definitely fuzziness in encounter points. I mean, an encounter point rating is literally just Level+10 for non-unique/hero/summoner characters. But some ability sets are definitely better than others, some demons work especially well together and have synergy in their capabilities, etc. There can also be more situational quirks, like running into demons that just happen to hit you or your party's weaknesses, and/or are resistant or immune to your preferred attacks. None of those sorts of things are taken into account for encounter point ratings... though in the case of the non-situational ones I do account for them when designing encounters (which is why this encounter is just 1 Oni, not 2, even though 2 should be allowed for Rush's Sanctum going strictly by their encounter point value.)

TLDR: Feel free to argue with encounter designs and offer feedback. :D Though, yeah, in a case of 27 vs. 60, I will probably need a fair bit of convincing to apply a nerf hammer. :)
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby oneeyedjoe » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:51 pm

Ferret wrote: I mean, an encounter point rating is literally just Level+10 for non-unique/hero/summoner characters.

Wow really? That's... kinda lazy? It's not like I can come up with a better idea for encounter points, but still.
My main concern with Oni is juggernaut ability. When you encounter one scary overleveled demon usually you want to get him down as fast as possible avoiding 1vs1 fights, so you group up your guys around him. With Oni that trick might prove to be more troublesome because of that single ability. But all in all I definitely overreacted to that encounter: just met shoggoth in python's sanctum along with 3 blobs and took them down easily; high level demons aren't as scary as they initially look after all.
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby Gaswafers » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:59 pm

A big problem I see with this is that the oni link is impossible to accomplish at that level, which seems unfair. If you have a bronze offering, it's unfair in the other direction.
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby oneeyedjoe » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:03 pm

That's too. Of course if I ctrl+Q now, my ghost's oni will be lower level, but that doesn't stop me from steamrolling everything for a couple of levels right now.
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby Ferret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:13 pm

I originally hesitated to make demons such as Oni OODs for that reason, Gaswafers.

...but, then I decided that maybe wasn't a problem. You're not forced to try and link with it, after all, and other roguelikes often put you in situations where discretion the better part of valor. It's true that I do not want to design encounters you have to run from... but I'm not as certain I'm opposed to encounters you can't link very easily or at all. I'm sure there are other link attempts that are not entirely possible for certain builds, and there are even other fully impossible cases (ex: Headless, Pele, or Artemis in an enemy summoner's party) already too.

As for steamrolling for a few levels: this is sort of Demon's equivalent to finding an amazing powerful artifact weapon or something in another RL. It isn't going to happen every game, but it will happen sometimes. :D
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby geminimax » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:13 pm

I actually think demon needs more OoD encounters like this and the archangel one. It brings the designer closer to "rare good artifact" instead of the "HELL YEAH RAIJU TIME" we have right now. (please don't take Raijus away I need them so I can get my electricity revelations :cry: )
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Re: Oni in Rush's sanctum?

Postby mbj » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:58 am

Needs multi-encounters again tbh
Those adrenaline-fueled sphincter clenching moments when you run into 2-3 raicho packs out in the open were great. And the sacrifices you had to make to run away or reposition made it even more satisfying. Right now you can pretty much run from any encounter without any losses, excepting ambushes with heavy hitters or stun-lockers after turning a corner. The only time you're forced to engage (or make a high risk escape) is if you're in a dead end without a portal out. Leaving decoys behind to get out of line of sight, along with how fast enemy groups forget about you, ensures your safety after only a few steps. Not that decoy-tech is bad (please don't nerf anything anymore, I'm still reeling after Ferret nuked vigor siphon and MaxHP damage in general into oblivion), but enemies with a short-term memory of more than a few seconds (or at least ones that aren't fooled by long range desummoning) and some basic tracking or searching capabilities could add some more risk.

You know what, maybe making DEsummoning distance based might be an "interesting" mechanic; maybe if you can only desummon demons in your line of sight, or within a certain range; use the far summon relic upgrade to desummon from out of line of sight or from a longer range. Actually maybe don't do this because then you wouldn't be able to run at all without ensuring an ally's death.

Also add vaults with phat loot and a bunch of (possibly themed) enemies or a few very dangerous enemies, or maybe a couple heroic demons; throw distrust on them so you can't linkscum them. The loot would have to be great though and the Demon loot game is actually pretty weak. Your inventory is only filled with a bunch of consumables, and as for demons you only have 6 "inventory" slots, and for abilities only 8 "inventory" slots per demon. The best current candidates for vault loot would be offerings, cards and chimes, maybe runes or gems. Matrices used to feel like game changing drops because of their rarity and uniqueness (mind matrix anyone?) but they're already handled by currency (yawn). Currency is boring because it can't buy consumables (except matrices and spirit chimes I guess). Also add a way for currency to swap/buy relic upgrades, buy traits, stat resets. Or actually turn those into consumables and put them in vaults.
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