Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

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Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby Marcus Aseth » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:38 am

Hi, is my first post so I should start by congratulating to you FerretDev for making this very fun and addictive game alone, this said I should also point out that the maxHP damage mechanic I've just encountered is a kind of mechanic that I think can make many people run away from the game (me for sure) :roll:
The maxHP damage is not a problem in itself, the problem is the maxHP not going back to normal after a full rest, so after an encounter with 3 demons with such skill my whole party was ruined forever and that is just not fun, seeying the Nero with 12hp at full health basically means the game just became like if you have your party injured but there is no healing option in the game (cause he's stuck at 12/12).

I strongly suggest to remove this mechanic or make in such a way that max hp goes back to normal after rest. ;)
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby Ferret » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:02 am

Hey Marcus, and welcome to the forums. :D I'm glad you're enjoying the game. :) Though, I should point out it isn't strictly a solo effort: Geminimax makes the main character sprite art, and keylan handles the backend coding, and the feedback I get from posters here is a big help too.

If I understand your post right, you did not know that there were ways to get MaxHP back, which sounds like I need to underline this fact in the game better so people don't mistakenly believe it's a permanent loss!

As you noted, MaxHP doesn't recover over the passage of time, but there are three ways to get it back:

1) Earning experience: earning experience restores MaxHP, based on the amount of experience earned. This is the "usual" way of restoring lost MaxHP. It is worth noting that "inactive" party members still gain 100% experience, so they still recover MaxHP normally even if not taking part in battle.
2) Use Pure Stones and Pure Gems, which restore moderate amounts of missing MaxHP.
3) Use abilities that drain MaxHP from enemies to steal it back.

I apologize for not communicating how recovery of MaxHP works better. I'll see if I can figure out a good way to underline it better in game so people don't get the wrong idea. Maybe a message when you rest while carrying MaxHP damage that tells you what's wrong and how to fix it?

Thanks for the feedback and for signing up for the forums. :D Good luck in the Tower!
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby Marcus Aseth » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:16 am

Thanks Ferret :D
Oh snap, wish I had this knowledge earlier today since I ended up throwing away on purpose a promising run just by going kamikaze into the enemies :lol:
Yes, now I know how to fix it but I'm sure a message on the log will help many others understanding how the mechanic works and avoid getting the wrong idea like me :lol: That, or a debuff kind of thing like the "ACC v" you get on top of the demon when someone lowers its accuracy, because that in itself is an hint that you are debuffed so it is also implicit that there is a way to remove it (and one can then look for it instead of jumping to the wrong conclusion).

Again my congratulations to you guys, looking forward to see the future development of this game :D
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby wizzzargh » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:25 am

Approaching this from the other side of things

Is hit-n-run maxHP damage being used by the player as a way to chip down heroes (notably Madevra but applicable against most heroes and summoners) a desirable mechanic? Maybe capping the maxHP damage that can be taken at 50% or something would keep them threatening while still making it useful? It's a long and tedious process to kill Madevra with nothing but 1 dude with Vigor Siphon, and though it's admittedly a little satisfying to cheese hero encounters, it's also fairly risk-free if you know how to retreat properly.

Maybe it's not a big enough deal to worry about, since they make up such a small portion of encounters in the game and there's the whole 'pudding-farming is the punishment for pudding farming' angle to consider.
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby Ferret » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:37 am

I'm aware its a thing that is done, but no, it's definitely not a desirable mechanic. It has mostly lasted this long because I haven't found a solution I'm happy with yet.

I loathe the idea of having enemies just magically recover MaxHP/XP-based cooldowns over time since one of Demon's things is that generally "everyone" plays by the same rules... but it's the only idea I'm so far convinced would solve the problem. Limiting it to 50% would also work.. and maybe I could play that game for heroes, who are at least understood to be operating under a different rule set, but... grumble, it pokes me in the same way. I feel like I've gotten this far with the "same rules for you and enemies" thing that there should be some way to have it work, but ... there probably isn't and I likely need to just bite the bullet and go for the ugly answer. (It isn't like I don't bend the rules sometimes anyway: heroes for one thing, and the inhabitants of a certain Sanctum for another...)

I will politely disagree with the pudding farming bit though. :P I will confess I don't agree with many DCSS changes these days, but one philosophy the devs have right, even if the execution is sometimes disagreeable to me, is that tedious play being effective play is generally bad design. I've tolerated this small dose of it in Demon largely because it *is* a small dose, and because the mechanic is otherwise interesting to me, but that's it.
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby Gaswafers » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:51 am

An HP floor would also bring up the question of what happens when void touch hits on somebody who is already at the minimum? Do they take normal damage? Do they take no damage at all?
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby oneeyedjoe » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:38 pm

wizzzargh wrote:Approaching this from the other side of things

Is hit-n-run maxHP damage being used by the player as a way to chip down heroes (notably Madevra but applicable against most heroes and summoners) a desirable mechanic? Maybe capping the maxHP damage that can be taken at 50% or something would keep them threatening while still making it useful? It's a long and tedious process to kill Madevra with nothing but 1 dude with Vigor Siphon, and though it's admittedly a little satisfying to cheese hero encounters, it's also fairly risk-free if you know how to retreat properly.

Maybe it's not a big enough deal to worry about, since they make up such a small portion of encounters in the game and there's the whole 'pudding-farming is the punishment for pudding farming' angle to consider.


But Madevra is pretty much the only hero on whom this strategy really worth using. Zaji is easy anyway, lich, bandit-lord-dude-who-claims-to-be-the-devil and white/black sorceress are either immune or resistant to dark magic and archmage from the last floor can drain back his maxHP. Can't really see how this considered cheesy against summoners. Usually I try to either kill or weaken their demons first and then focus on summoner or focus fire summoner from the start and then clean up the mess. MaxHP damage doesn't really look like appealing option in these fights.
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Re: Max HP damage is not a fun mechanic

Postby wizzzargh » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:16 pm

Admittedly the truly outrageous maxHP cheese was something I did in my attempts at a 'have only 1 demon summoned at any given time' runs, there's not much use for it if you're playing normally.

But you CAN engage in soul-crushing tediously long loops of engage/disengage to wreck the maxHP of even dark-resistant things and summoner packs. And while there's usually no reason to, the fact remains that very low-risk means of grinding things to death do exist.
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