Random generation mode

[onget]

Demon is a pattern building game. When playing the same start combo, we recruit almost same demon in all play.

I need adaptation to randomness mode.

Features of random generation mode

All demons, heroes, summoners, dungeons, modifiers are randomized.

For game balance, probably need to have a "Directionality".
(Specific status, specific element, specific abilities etc)
But some things may be totally random!

And for ordinary games, rarely random things can be made to appear.

[Ferret]

This is a pretty interesting suggestion. It would certainly be an interesting game mode, but I confess it would be a fair bit of work to do this properly. Most of Demon's spawning stuff at the moment is coded as "here is a list, pick something", not "here is a pile of content, create the list according to some rules, then pick something."

That said:

1) I'm not taking it off the table so much as saying "it sounds great, but it will be awhile before I can get to something like this." To add some perspective, keep in mind the main gameplay mode isn't even content complete yet.

2) Even if I'm not doing this specifically yet, there are still ways to get more randomness into the existing areas of the game, though at the moment, I need to work on getting more of the missing levels done probably.

[wizzzargh]

Perhaps an 'ez2code random mode' version could be created by making an alternate game mode that ensured all demons spawned with no skills, BUT were modified, and being modified added, say, 4 abilities instead of 2.

[Ferret]

That would definitely be easier to arrange... but I admit I'm more interested in trying to find a way to incorporate this sort of thing into the main game, rather than making a new game mode. I mean, if there is a real problem of "not enough content variety", that's not something I want to address with a new game mode: I'd rather fix it in the main game.

My suspicion is that the answer might be as simple as "more content in existing space"... but simple doesn't necessarily mean easy to do, of course: content is often one of the most expensive work items.

We're already bordering the point where people do not see every demon in every complete playthrough, which means that further content additions to existing levels would likely rapidly increase the amount of "unseen" things each game. I think that would get us to the same place as what you guys are talking about? It won't happen as easily or quickly, and it won't be *completely* random... but in exchange, it would also remain structured and (supposedly ) well-designed since it was all being placed by me, rather than guided RNG?

Let me throw this another way: both of you have asked for (almost) completely*random content. Is that what is really needed/desired, or is the real issue more along the lines of "we wish we didn't see the exact same demons every game"? If it's the second, my proposal will eventually work... though again, content's expensive so it'd take some time to get there. If it's the first, then my next question would be why is (almost) completely random desirable, and what is it going to fix that having more content such that you only saw a random selection of it each game would not also fix?

[Gaswafers]

You better not be trying to ferret out of implementing better random ability assignment so things like modifications and revelation give better results.

[Ferret]

Objection sir! Objection!

Revelation is *not* Modification. Revelation is in fact completely and totally random by design. It doesn't even use the current rules Modifiers use for trying to intelligently pick abilities, and wasn't intended to. Not every burst of divine inspiration from the heavens is easily understood by those who receive them, after all.

[wizzzargh]

Let me throw this another way: both of you have asked for (almost) completely*random content. Is that what is really needed/desired, or is the real issue more along the lines of "we wish we didn't see the exact same demons every game"?

If it's the first, then my next question would be why is (almost) completely random desirable, and what is it going to fix that having more content such that you only saw a random selection of it each game would not also fix?

For me I think you're right about it being 'I wish we didn't see the exact same demons' because it leads to doing the same thing frequently- not even out of a sense of what is optimal, but just out of it being easy to settle into a routine. I think I've mostly complained about uniques being too reliable- leads to a lot of Chthonic Artemii and Whirling Turdaks, but similar things happen with wisps ensuring souleater and dancer moves.

Of course I COULD just make the active choice to only choose obscure rarely used demons so I have to admit this 'problem' can be solved by voluntary conducts on my part... so... um... buff my IRL cunning please


As for why I lust for RNG(and will probably continue to do so even after admitting RNG is not that great )... well, completely random content tickles delusions of novelty, even though I know the end result will probably not be cool 99% of the time. Like Pan Lords in DCSS- I think they're really cool in concept, but in practice they're mostly just beefier lumps of flesh that die after doing a few irrelevant things. But I still eagerly examine them when I find them and hope for something amazing to happen.

[Ferret]

For me I think you're right about it being 'I wish we didn't see the exact same demons' because it leads to doing the same thing frequently- not even out of a sense of what is optimal, but just out of it being easy to settle into a routine. I think I've mostly complained about uniques being too reliable- leads to a lot of Chthonic Artemii and Whirling Turdaks, but similar things happen with wisps ensuring souleater and dancer moves.

Yeah, uniques are an easy case to see it with: there is still, on average, only about 1 unique per dungeon floor, and that even includes summoners and heroes, so many of them aren't recruitables.

As for why I lust for RNG(and will probably continue to do so even after admitting RNG is not that great )... well, completely random content tickles delusions of novelty, even though I know the end result will probably not be cool 99% of the time. Like Pan Lords in DCSS- I think they're really cool in concept, but in practice they're mostly just beefier lumps of flesh that die after doing a few irrelevant things. But I still eagerly examine them when I find them and hope for something amazing to happen.

This is what Modifiers are supposed to be doing though. The hope was that by only going *partially* random, I might be able to get the best of both worlds: if a great result comes up, the demon is scary and memorable. If the abilities don't turn out so good, it still has its base ability set to fall back on.

[mbj]

I agree. Make every demon and ability (independently) unidentified. Also make consumables partially (fully?) unidentified too, maybe keeping the (random?) name of the (random?) base type such as "blue stone" "emerald gem" "pulsating rune". Give pseudo-id on abilities' type(s) and special effect(s) depending on the circumstance. For example, if something with a known resist table is immune/resistant/weak to an attack, you might id the ability's type. If a status is applied, you'll tack that onto the pseudo description (could get tricky with on-hit passives). Full id abilities after you learn the ability on your PC, full id a demon's stats and maybe resists after capturing. With loremaster relic upgrade everything starts pseudo-IDed, and pseudo-id will instead fully id.

The problem of demons' abilities and resists and modifiers being static remains, so vets will just look at the demon's tile and ability pics and fully id them in their minds (ASCII ferreting when my man?). And since the demons are based on real life mythology and essentially have static flavor which generally can't be separated from those abilities/resists, I'm not sure how this could be solved. Maybe you could have the abilities of a particular demon be chosen semi randomly from their modifier at spawn time and still be flavored appropriately. Have two or three different static modifiers for each "type" if you want to separate out different demons of the same type, which could include mixed types like jumpy speedy electric animal or dark/evil giant skull basher or whatever, instead of having them draw from the same "electric" or "impact" pool as the other demons. And/or have each demon species select their abilities in a more specific way, for example Raichus would take melee electric, elec passive, and speed/movement ability. This second method would maintain static flavor and keep each demon within their own niche, while adding quite a bit of variability even in standard unmodified packs.

The other option is to go full dynamic, make everything random and shuffle demon tiles and names and modifiers and ability types all over the place. The only thing that should remain static is the power/accuracy/range and maybe the special effect/status (although the type of the status could be shuffled as well); the elements should be shifted around too, either as a whole (think fire-typed buffs (that fire immunes can't use), or Zeus style elec-typed light attacks) or on an individual basis (this would be harder for spoiled players to meta-game I guess). Keep in mind all of this is done in conjunction with the ID minigame so you'll have no clue what the ferret is going on. Even demons that you've already identified will spawn with abilities from their modifier or niche as described above, so you'll still have to wait until combat takes place before you can figure out their moveset. Oh and I guess your PCs starting abilities should be random and/or unidentified too

[Ferret]

Demon IDing is something I've thought about before, in part because Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey does it so it was already close to my mind, so to speak. Of the three styles of IDs, this is the closest to being a good fit I think. But yeah, as you said, this would require the randomization to really have a point though.

Ability ID feels like it could turn out fiddly, and also mean at times. (i.e.: Imagine something like Snuff Out, which the AI won't even try to use until it's highly likely to work.) Partial ability ID would be extra-fiddly: If I did ability ID at all, I'd probably want to go all or nothing on it per ability.

Item ID is a bit awkward for Demon, at least with the current consumables. Demon's consumables weren't really designed with an ID system in mind, because I have found most ID systems for consumables eventually just factor out into metas which seems to defeat the purpose. If I did this one, I'd probably swipe Golden Krone Hotel's system (or at least the system it used when I played it) of having each consumable have 3 possibilities (the 3 possibilities are known as soon as you pick it up), you find out which one it actually is when you use it. If between finding and using, you may be able to eliminate possibilities by disproof. i.e.: If you find a red potion that is either Cure, Rot, or Treeform, but later use a blue potion and it turns out to be Treeform, you would know the red can now only be Cure or Rot.)

ASCII mode... I've got nothing against ASCII, I grew up on Angband and Moria way back in the day myself. Still play an ASCII game myself once in awhile, like Halls of Mist. But... I confess I don't wanna spend the time on it, at least right now. I stare at a Tower that's still missing 10 floors and all sorts of side dungeons, and for that matter, dungeon floors that use probably the most vanilla generation techniques known to humanity. To say nothing of the remaining systems (such as traits) or systems that need some work (relic upgrades, more interactables.)

Anyway, going back to the main point: ID systems largely require randomization, and I still think I'm going to need more content period for even randomization to be an option... and again, I want to get the main game fully together before I start exploring side quests, even really interesting sounding ones like this. Your design for how to do it for demons and their abilities is pretty good though. It would give a way to have some randomization without completely giving up the "schedule" of mechanic introduction that I've set. The mythology may be more flexible than you're thinking, at least in some cases, so more randomization may be possible than you'd think in terms of resistances for example, without breaking that rule. (e.x.: Raicho would probably always resist Electricity, but nothing says their weaknesses have to be the ones they have now. Zombies have probably had about 4-5 different resistance tables throughout Demon history. )

Thanks for the feedback. The things discussed in this topic are definitely intriguing, but In terms of big ticket items, particularly ones with significant ramifications for the entire game, I really want to focus on the main stuff first before taking on new large tasks that go in directions I didn't originally plan for.