Currency

[mbj]

I've noticed that my party (including the player character) is hugely underskilled with the current currency implementation and just really weak overall. I feel like currency adds challenge (while also removing the randomness of spirit chime/matrix drops) but it removes a lot of interesting and fun party/skill builds that were once possible with training points. It also means that you'll have a lot of disposable unskilled meatshield demons that aren't integral to your party.

In my current game I'm level 12, with 596 C in the bank on Tower:11. I've lost several disposable demons, but also a cursed asrai used for debuffing and headless, whose diehard ability I couldn't copy to anyone in time because I'm always short on currency. So far I've only been able to afford two demon fusions (which provide 2 skills each by the way! and they are both still alive), 2 PC skill copies, and maybe 8 demon-demon skill copies (of which only 3 skill copies still exist in my party). I've not revived anyone (and probably never will) because the cost is insanely prohibitive. So basically I'm stuck with a bunch of unskilled demons that I don't really have any control over who just melt whenever ranged, modified, or status inducing enemies come into view. And my PC only has TWO copied skills. Another two skills come from heroes; these skills don't really fit the build I envisioned but I have to use them anyway just to survive since currency is in short supply. This *might* be because I might've skipped an optional branch with more currency in it due to running away from a mostly explored floor or two, but I don't think "optional" branches should be necessary to your party's survival.

Overall I'd say the challenge increases but the flexibility of your party and the interesting and fun builds that were once possible are unviable or just impossible now. Sure it cuts down on "village bicycle" skills like diehard, evasion, tireless, etc. being passed around to the whole party, but it also cuts down on the transfer of specialized skills. My playstyle feels severely restricted with the addition of currency.

[Ferret]

Hey, and welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the feedback and impressions post.

It will probably take some tweaking around to get it right, but I'm hoping I can find cost values for Copy Ability that continue to keep away the casual passing out of abilities while heading back towards being able to do specialized builds more easily.

I'm going to let a bit more feedback pile up before I make the first round of adjustments, but one of the great things about the currency system is it gives me a lot of knobs to turn that I didn't have before for controlling this sort of thing.

Thanks again for the report.

PS: You're correct btw, balance-wise, you're not required to do any optional dungeons, though it does make things more difficult, it should never make them impossible.

[mbj]

Admittedly I've only played one run on this new build, so I might not have room to complain. Anyway, here are some ideas that could help allow creating specialized demons without causing the skill soup of the previous builds:

1) Increase currency drop rates or reduce copy costs "enough" (but not too much)
2) Base the cost of a skill copy on the skill itself? (Such that universal utility skills and/or passives cost more)
3) Base the cost of a skill copy on the number of times you've copied the skill or how many demons in your party already have that skill

Also, revivals and fusions could stay expensive, but if other people think the cost is a problem you could allow sacrificing another demon to offset the cost.

[wizzzargh]

2) Base the cost of a skill copy on the skill itself? (Such that universal utility skills and/or passives cost more)

This would be a nightmarish amount of work since skills are so situational and usually 1 skill isn't strictly superior to another... but I do echo the sentiment here a lot.

RIP, Lucky Charm.

[Sandman25]

3) Base the cost of a skill copy on the number of times you've copied the skill or how many demons in your party already have that skill.

I like this option, I was going to suggest it before reading

Also I think it can be interesting to have some random skills learned sometimes based on XL advancement. I mean if your demons grew 3-4 XL together, they had much time and might learn something from each other. It would greatly increase variety and often result in combinations which are not normally seen by players.
"Your Ogre learns Tireless", "Your Faerie learns Dash" etc. Of course player might use "Delete ability" if it resulted in some bad combo (or if player just hopes to learn something more useful next time)

[Ferret]

I'll probably start by tweaking Copy Ability's cost, since that's the straightforward way.

The second idea in theory should be a wash: ideally, every ability in Demon is roughly equal, their value coming from how they're utilized and how they're combined with each other. Granted, this is not quite true in some cases, usually involving underdeveloped mechanics (Lucky Charm is a great example, to put it in perspective, imagine if it was Presence Charm instead. The problem is less with Lucky Charm and more with Luck doesn't get a lot of love except for the very earliest floors and near the end of the game.)

The third idea could be interesting in its own right, rather than as a fix for issues with Copy Ability. I actually kind of already have the set up for it too: each demon is already linked to a large pool of "random" abilities through its modifier.

Anyway, I'm thinking about trying reducing Copy Ability's cost to about 1/3 the currency you typically find on a floor instead of 1/2 (and thus, a summoner copy would cost 2/3 of a floor's currency instead of all of it) This will let you do 50% more Copy Ability uses with the same amount of currency, basically. It's a pretty big jump, sure, but I tend to favor pretty big jumps early in balancing a new mechanic. It's like that old guessing game where you try to guess a number between 1 and 100. You guess 50 first, and if you're told you need to go lower, you go 25 next, not 49. 25 might well be too much, and if it is, 37 will be next.

I probably won't wait too long before making this change, but I want to give it a couple of more days. Also, going to see if I can slip in a certain UI change I keep getting requests for finally, but this is a busy week in real life town.

[carnegie]

I agree with the others, and 50% more ability copies per floor sounds like a great tradeoff.

[mbj]

Well I've had a few runs with the reduced costs for ability copies and it seems like I'm always able to copy over plenty of skills to everyone in my party and to my player character, sometimes with a large surplus that builds up that actually makes fusions and revivals a viable option. Funnily enough I managed to win on the first version with expensive copies using a dirty needle build which is insanely strong, yet haven't been able to win on the cheap copy build although I've gotten close once or twice. Taking a middle ground between original prices and the current cheap prices might be what you're looking for, but I'm not going to complain about cheap copies .

[Ferret]

Yeah, I'm probably going to release a build today or tomorrow that puts prices at 80% of the original (they're currently at 66% of the original) and call that good to go. I may still need to make some adjustments after that, but they would by definition be pretty minor since we've already narrowed it down to the 66-100% range.

Oh, you were that win on the early version? I saw that we had one! Congrats. "Dirty needles" is a build I'm fond of myself (which is why it's available as a start even though it meant shoe-horning into what is otherwise a fully magic-based relic ) Eventually that will probably need to get moved onto an actual physical ranged attacker relic, but that doesn't exist yet.

[Sandman25]

Is the only difference for those builds in credit costs? It looks like we have difficulty levels finally: original cost, 50% cost, 80% cost