Currency

[Ferret]

Hey there.

So, I'm starting to feel like I need to get back to doing a bit of the outstanding systems work.

I think the next one I want to tackle is currency, but this name is a bit misleading because in theory, it will actually touch on several systems at once, in some cases (possibly) replacing them.

So, I wanted to open a discussion about the things I'm committed to currency already doing, as well as the things it *could* do.

Before you dive into that though, a brief explanation:

Currency is meant to be a "balanced" change. What I mean is, it will give and take. For example, currency will probably include some way to buy items. But... that will also mean fewer item drops. You'll end up with the same, or maybe even slightly less items in general, but you'd have a bit of control over what some of them are. (Or, you might end up with more items, if you were willing to spend currency to the point where you were sacrificing in other areas it governs.)

So yes, it may change the balance... but it is not intended to make the game significantly harder or easier. Please keep that in mind when reading/suggesting/commenting.



Basic proposal outline:

Committed
- Currency will be found throughout the Tower and its side dungeons.
- Currency will sometimes be requested in negotiations.
- Currency will, by some means, be able to be used to purchase items. This could range from 'occasionally can purchase from a limited selection' to 'can always purchase from the entire list', or any imaginable variant in between.

Optional
- (Likelihood: High) Currency could potentially be used (relatively cheaply) to copy skills from allies to allies and/or to the player, potentially replacing one or both of these systems. Not only do I get to get rid of two clunkier systems (training points, and player skill learning, but this may also at least help address some of the possibly overkill "choice pain" that occurs with party management, since under this system, assuming you had sufficient funds, you could immediately learn any skills you wanted from a new ally. Granted, it does encourage a "catch and release" approach to skill training... but then, catching demons/monsters just to get their goodies is somewhat common across the genre and seems more accepted than Demon's current mechanics sometimes are.
- (Likelihood: Medium) Currency could potentially be used (at significant expense) to directly "matrix" demons together, potentially replacing Silver and Gold Matrices. By being directly available, you always have access to it if you have the Currency, without the need for a shop. This would address the woefully random nature of access to this fun and interesting mechanic.
- (Likelihood: Medium) Currency could become a requirement for all link attempts, up front. This would help discourage the oft complained about "tactic" of routinely linking with easy capture targets to trivialize encounters.
- (Likelihood: Low)) Currency could potentially be used (at great expense!) to directly revive dead demons, potentially replacing Spirit Chimes. (Note: I'm serious about this being expensive... you'd probably have to spend several dungeon floors worth of currency for 1 revival... and there's a lot of other demands on currency. By being directly available, you always have access to it if you have the Currency, without the need for a shop. This would address the random nature of access to reversing key ally deaths... though the cost would be so great I that I suspect it would still be rarely used, it would at least overcome the feeling of hopelessness some people feel when a key ally dies, particularly early on.

[wizzzargh]

I know there's a few demons that would definitely become 'instant skill piñatas'' under this system(looking at you, slime, gandayah, and zombie), and I think this will be a player buff, with a much greater ability to make demons with skills that match their stats, and to make those demons quickly. I think the XP-gated delay on training points gives a satisfying feeling of progression. On the other hand, the feeling of more control of their party is probably more in-line with gamer mentality.

I hope matrixing isn't TOO expensive- after all, it's a bit of a gamble, and holds the not-insignificant cost of sacrificing a demon, and self-limits itself thanks to the inability to modify modified demons. But this is definitely my favorite proposal- finding wild modifieds is cool, but making really weird things often requires a Matrix.

With regards to what demons ask for, I should think that if they ask for a Heal Stone or other 'common' item you should be able to offer currency instead, maybe at a hugely inflated rate of what buying the item would cost, maybe at face value price. But the either or option seems important to me- if you fail a link because you didn't buy X item at the last wishing well, but have 800,000 currency, that would be pretty annoying. Demons that want specifically currency or specifically will refuse currency are fine of course, but having to preplan purchases for negotiating in advance sounds like a pain.

A level-based currency cost for linking could be good but the natural fear there is being poor and unable to link, but NEEDING to do so to get more demons or take a fight down a notch when you have a weaker party than normal. Maybe if linking only cost currency if your party was full or near-full? I'm pretty sure only a madman would try to get free links if you needed to have under 6 demons for free links.

I'd keep spirit chimes as a rare dungeon drop- if a key ally dies, Matrix availability makes it more likely you can make another 'key ally.' But I would worry currency chimes would encourage leaning on uniques and good early demons excessively, when finding new demons and changing your party seems like an integral part of Demon.

[Sandman25]

Just 2 points:
1) Current training system can be combined with currency. You should get a training point AND spend some currency to train. It solves both problems: decision paralysis (now you don't need to spend ALL TP) and 'instant skill piñatas'' (as wizzzargh calls it, you will not be able to get an ability instantly).
2) To solve "activate link to have easier fight" problem we don't need to punish all link attempts, just the unsuccessful ones. Also I would like to get rid of "distrust", it is not necessary if unsuccessful links cost currency. If it's possible, the currency fine for unsuccessful link should depend on player actions. For example, if I activated chase link and didn't even try to chase (so 25 turns link failed in just 5 turns), I should lose much more currency than if I failed it after a long chase (so it failed in 20 turns because I was unlucky to run into another group of monsters).

Edit. For point 1 probably we can train abilities without TP also but it should be much more expensive currency-wise and perhaps even affordable during fight (so you can desperately learn something before the demon dies).

[Ferret]

Hmmm... if the skill copy cost was roughly 25-33% of what you find on a given dungeon floor, and that system was replacing both player skill training and training points, while you would have much more control over how skills were distributed in the party, you would also have far fewer skills learned per floor (keeping in mind that you also need that same currency for shopping, merging demons together, negotiations, etc..) I'm not saying the cost *will* be 25-33%, mind you. But, I wanted to throw it out as an example of how even though you might be able to learn skills from a demon instantly and have more control, it may not lead to more power if it costs a significant bit of currency.

Yeah, I could just combine currency training with the current TP system and charge both as you (Sandman) suggest... but I admit part of my motive here is to get rid of the TP system if possible. I have never been entirely happy with it. You often end up carting around a lot of unused TP towards the later part of the game, it encourages weird "train X to Y so Y can train to Z, R, and S since Y has TP it isn't using" manuevers, when demons will gain their next TP isn't always transparent, and... and... and... yeah, TP-based skill learning hasn't been on my happy list for some time now.

I hear you guys about the instant skill pinata thing though: it's a concern of mine too, I'm just trying to decide how much of one it is, and whether or not I can mitigate it some other way. But...mitigate it too much and I'm back to where I am now on decision paralysis re: keeping demons around to learn abilities. One idea I've had is having the cost of skill copy be influenced in part by how many levels the demon has gained since joining you. Immediately after pickup is somewhat expensive: the demon doesn't quite trust you yet, and you're basically having to bribe it. On the other hand, if it is an old friend who has fought beside you for several floors, the cost might be quite low... but, this idea runs the risk of also being like the "train X to Y so Y can train R, S, T" idea where you have a new demon teach a very old demon something, then use the old demon to train everyone else cheaply so... yeah, there is some more thinking to do here still.

Matrices are and aren't a gamble: You get a ton of important benefits no matter what happens that are all up front: resistance changes, stat changes, the "modified" 12.5% HP bonus. The abilities you get are random, but there is some rough AI these days that at least assures they will be something the demon can you use (you don't get Firestarter + Greek Fire from a Fire modifier applied to a demon with no Fire abilities anymore, for example.) Cost would probably be somewhere around 100-200% of what you find on a typical dungeon floor (more if the target is unique, of course.)

Whether or not I do a currency opt out for items during negotiation will probably depend on which idea I go with for purchasing them with currency. If the option to buy them is readily available, then yeah, you'd definitely be able to offer currency instead: to do otherwise would basically be interface fail. On the other hand, if the option is rarer, like shops in DCSS for example, I'm not sure I agree it's as required: you don't *always* have the option to purchase them at that point, and if you chose not to, you were making the decision to save your money at the cost of maybe not having the item for later use... whether that was for saving your life in combat or convincing a demon to join you. Though, I could just as easily do your (wizzargh's) idea of just applying a significant markup in this case instead of flating refusing it, I'd probably be okay with that too. And yes, some demons would refuse such offers in any case.

The link cost would probably be really, really low.... let's call it maybe 10% or so of what you find on a level. You'd have to be in really dire straits to not be able to come up with even that amount. But, at the same time, it would be enough where you don't want to routinely solve combats by link-dismissing 3 or 4 demons.

Distrust would still be necessary: I like that many key demons are, for the most part, one shot attempts, especially rare modified demons and uniques. Distrust is also a good mechanic for capture failure penalties on the most potentially abusable capture mechanics.

Thank you both for the feedback and comments so far. Keep 'em coming. There's no denying this is a big set of changes for Demon, so I want to hear everything anyone's got to say.

[Sandman25]

I was not clear, as distrust I meant "spread distrust", I am fine with the demon you failed the link to being distrust
"Transitional training" problem can be solved by being unable to train things the demon itself learned from other demons. So for example, if you want to teach 5 demons tireless, you would need to learn it 5 times from gandayah, not from faerie or other demons which have the ability learned

[Ferret]

I was not clear, as distrust I meant "spread distrust", I am fine with the demon you failed the link to being distrust
"Transitional training" problem can be solved by being unable to train things the demon itself learned from other demons. So for example, if you want to teach 5 demons tireless, you would need to learn it 5 times from gandayah, not from faerie or other demons which have the ability learned

Oh, okay. Yeah, I might be able to be talked into dumping spreading Distrust at some point, but for the moment, it's filling a useful role, even if it's a bit brutal as a penalty.

I could do "transitional training", but then you go back to needing to keep Gandayah around forever when you only have 8 slots. What might work though is a compromise idea: demons can teach abilities they learned to others, but they don't get the "loyalty" discount. i.e.: It's never cheaper to do transitional training, but you still have a way to move abilities around without being chained to the original source.

[wizzzargh]

What might work though is a compromise idea: demons can teach abilities they learned to others, but they don't get the "loyalty" discount. i.e.: It's never cheaper to do transitional training, but you still have a way to move abilities around without being chained to the original source.

I think this is a good compromise

To solve "activate link to have easier fight" problem we don't need to punish all link attempts, just the unsuccessful ones. Also I would like to get rid of "distrust", it is not necessary if unsuccessful links cost currency. If it's possible, the currency fine for unsuccessful link should depend on player actions. For example, if I activated chase link and didn't even try to chase (so 25 turns link failed in just 5 turns), I should lose much more currency than if I failed it after a long chase (so it failed in 20 turns because I was unlucky to run into another group of monsters).

I think this idea has good potential, since it provides different levels of success or failure on links

[Ferret]

Thanks again for the feedback and comments. This won't be in the next build (doing assorted minor clean-up/improvements in that), but I probably won't wait toooo long on it.

[Shadowdweller]

Eh, I quite like the ability to use currency as a matrix replacement. All too often I either have many more matrices than I'm likely to use...or find no matrices whatsoever. The swinginess is somewhat obnoxious. Presumably you would have some limitations on when and where you can purchase items? The ability to obtain precisely the item you need at precisely the right moment would be...probably overpowered in my personal opinion.

The one meager concern I have is that...I kind of like the need to anticipate future need for a particular requested item in demon negotiations. If you can replace any item with X currency, one runs the risk of making the process a lot more simplistic/one-dimensional. Depending on the particular implementation, naturally.

[Sandman25]

Is it acceptable to provide difficulty levels? Currency might be good for that. Currently I suspended playing Demon because it's too hard for me.

I believe Ferret can control "overpowerness" by generation of currency, I suspect we will have less items than before, just because we can choose what we want.